About big jonny

The man, the legend. The guy who started it all back in the Year of Our Lord Beer, 2000, with a couple of pages worth of idiotic ranting hardcoded on some random porn site that would host anything you uploaded, a book called HTML for Dummies (which was completely appropriate), a bad attitude (which hasn’t much changed), and a Dell desktop running Win95 with 64 mgs of ram and a six gig hard drive. Those were the days. Then he went to law school. Go figure. Flagstaff, Arizona, USA

173 thoughts on “You. Fucking. Liar.

  1. He has lied no more than the president , my wife or Wells Fargo , we caught Lancey by the toe now we let him go !

  2. I could handle the lying just fine – who ever “believed” him before was braindead anyway – I just can’t handle all the actions he and his pose took to cover that shit. Some people should sue and they should sue big time!

  3. Hey Jonny, why do you insist on perpetuating the negativity. He has done so much positive work for cycling in the US, bringing our sport to the ignorant car obsessed masses. It’s the regulators as usual that don’t acknowledge the big picture and try to stir up shit to keep their jobs. He would make a great politician though, or, at least an American politician… I’m in Florence, Italy, on holiday, and was just watching a tribute to “the Pirate”, who’s regarded as a hero here, and he never doped eh. Come on, who doesn’t use some form of drug… DC! Stop being petty and support an American legend.

  4. Classic. You almost have to admire the sheer brass balls it took to make an advert like that, pretty amazing. Textbook sociopath?

  5. Ewwww, don’t get me started on those ones. I won’t start a shit fest by criticizing your choices of booze (or any booze for that matter), but how about something a little more refined: Fat Tire (of course) or anything by Four Peaks… And not to bring in politics, but really, most mass marketed corporate swill sucks. Or maybe you have some sponsors to satisfy…

  6. Damn, well said Bigjohnny. Lance and all the other us postal brass douche bags need to be held accountable for the misappropriation of us government funds to fund a decade+ doping ring (they used fucking U.S. tax payer money to buy testo, epo, blood). All of the Lance supporters out there should try explaining to your kid why Lance is a fraud.

  7. #03. “He has done so much positive work for cycling in the US, bringing our sport to the ignorant car obsessed masses”

    His net effect on cycling can’t be determined with any confidence, but I would argue it ain’t positive. A talented new generation of riders will NEVER evade the stigma that all pro cyclists are dopers because this arrogant fuck absolutely cemented that idea in the minds of average americans.

  8. “His net effect on cycling can’t be determined with any confidence, but I would argue it ain’t positive. A talented new generation of riders will NEVER evade the stigma that all pro cyclists are dopers because this arrogant fuck absolutely cemented that idea in the minds of average americans.”

    Yeah, I’m with this. Armstrong is a greedy asshole. And yes, sometimes assholes do good things. But you know what “Team America” does to assholes.

  9. Seriously, you guys need to get over this shit. There is other cycling news going on rather than some guy who retired years ago. there are more positive things to post about than this.

  10. I’d rather drink cold American piss water than Fat Tire any day of the week. Pretending to have taste and then recommending fat tire is a much bigger crime than defending Lance at this point.

  11. I loved that commercial. But I agree, get over it and move on. More scantly clad hotties posted to FB seeeeems like a good way to start healing…

  12. “A talented new generation of riders will NEVER evade the stigma that all pro cyclists are dopers because this arrogant fuck absolutely cemented that idea in the minds of average americans.”

    @bissorbpc— well, you mean USADA cemented that idea, right? Lance Armstrong hasn’t exactly led the charge against doping.

  13. Well let me just say this about that. I’m with Smitty #15. Imma put on a nice, comfy NikeFit, crack a cold Michelob Ultra and let the healing begin.

    (NOTE: ATTEMPTED HUMOR.)

  14. To many fans of pro cycling, and I count myself as one of those, this IS positive news. Truth, exposure, discourse, all the shit necessary to have hope for and belief in the new batch of riders. JFC we might finally have an american PRoubaix winner soon!

  15. Payback is a motherfucker, Cancer Jesus.

    Bash on I say.

    the emperor has no clothes.

    I despised Fraudstrong for a long time and this Schadenfreude is SWEET!

    The fanboys are deserting ship like the rats they are, except for a few hopeless cases. Or maybe the phrase should be like ships deserting a sinking rat.

    Next step for Armstrong is being sued by all the organizations he defrauded over the years. There’s the London Sunday Times and SCA Promotions. Floyd still has his whistleblower suit. Maybe USPS can sue him for using their sponsorship money to buy drugs. Now it’s time for the greatest sporting fraud of all time to be on the receiving end of some litigation. How does it feel, Lance with your house of cards crumbling around you?

    Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.

    Pretty soon people will refer to Pharmstrong as: That. Fucking. Loser.

  16. the ironic thing here is not only is the slogan JUST DO IT….he apparently made everyone do it…IT being dope.

    and he fucking did do it, either that or he is captain super dick asshole number one. I mean seriously, have you ever gotten so many people at once to hate you and make up the same story? doubt it.

    admit it, and then move on

    until then FYYFF. Jonny got it right.

  17. I loved it when it came out,, get out there and ride I thought,, but as we have all leaned the Math does not add up… Fucking Liar,,,

  18. would i get out of bed earlier and ride harder with dope? would i turn down beers at the bar with friends and go train because i’m on dope? would i focus every minute of every day into cycling…all because i’m on dope? …i don’t know what this means…but they’re the questions i ask myself with regard to this topic. mental masturbation.

  19. Fa fa fa wha?

    It’s ballersville that a bike fag pulled off some white collar pillaging which enhanced the overall good of society whilst he went on. Sorry it wasn’t any of you Sallys. Why is it that the hate on this topic just doesn’t compute sometimes? Lance fucking Pharmstrong ruled. You will never see thuggery heavier than the days of he and Pantani and so on. Fuck it. Fuck your moral tones.

    Wait. I don’t know what I’m saying.

  20. No, wait, the Gnomer is on to something here.

    Picture this: Lance protests his innocence to the bitter end, one Kafka-esque episode after another in a white-hot gossip-media tornado. After months, he is finally nailed up and sent to a federal prison on tax evasion and misappropriation charges. His team of counsel has some big swinging dicks, so it’s no problemo getting transferred to a private prison in Panama, George fucking W. Bush his own bad self is on the Board. Lance immediately assumes control of all cocaine traffic from South America, full tilt boogie, revenues of three billions dollars a year at a healthy 32% profit margin. That is some heavy thuggery right there, mi amigos.

  21. EPO or IPA, he is a seven time champion, you big drunk pusillanimous!
    Why can’t you just be happy we got a genuine ‘merican hero and leave it at that?

  22. L.A. is evil.
    That is one evil fucker who conspired to defraud the race and made his team dope and if they didn’t he blackballed them and ruined their careers.
    I don’t think we should ever forget what his evil actions have done and the people he has ruined.

  23. He was a great racer. He doped. So does almost everyone at that level, since the 60′s. He was/is a huge arrogant dick. Why does any of it matter to any of us? I would think it would matter less to all of us cyclists than to the tabloid obssesed, non riding public. But no.

  24. Man, I amantes to believe that Drunk Cyclist would be more serious about this matter. Really sorry that such a cool site took such a poor stand…

  25. Cassal, it’s clear you haven’t been following this site. If you actually did follow Drunkcyclist, you’d know how stupid your comment is. This “stand” has been consistent forever and is one of the reasons Jonny et. al. are so dope (ahem). Ethics matter.

  26. This is my body; it doesn’t ride on Trek bikes nor wear anything from Nike in over 6 years. But i love my Lemond Poprad. LA is a scum bag and always has been!

  27. This is one of the best new reports on the whole deal. The great thing on the news in OZ is they are not afraid of the legal issues that may come here in the states. The sheer HUBRIS of this ARROGANT FUCK is amazing. Watch his face as he lies under oath on multiple occasions. Then to put faces with all the names of people LA ruined puts it in to perspective on how evil this dude is.

    I am going to say this and own it. Lance is in deeper than he thinks, SCA will get its $ back. He committed purgery and I think he will end up in a slew of lawsuits. how Andre Birotte dropped the Fed case should go down as one of the biggest gaffs in legal history.

    http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/10/11/3608613.htm

  28. …the birotte deal needs to be exposed at some point in all of this…

    …gotta be something underhanded there when an investigation of that magnitude with an international scope & all the attendant publicity is dropped like a hot fucking rock…

    …it’s hard to believe that birotte himself didn’t have to answer to a higher up in ‘justice’ but if so, it wasn’t publicized …

  29. This one’s for Big Jonny: http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.764/article_detail.asp

    I went for a ride with a paperback Pynchon in my jersey pocket. It was nestled up nice and neat against a silver flask. I finished all three… The ride, the book and the flask.

    I got home with a nagging question about one of Pynchon’s infuriating phrases, surfed the net for an answer, got distracted, and ended up on the above page. I immediately thought of this site.

  30. I will never forgive Larry for what he did to Simeoni, publicly. That’s not a legend. That’s bullying low grade scum.

  31. …obviously it wasn’t ‘gravity’s rainbow’ or you’d have a hernia…

    …bwahahaha !!!…whoops, i mean – just sayin’…

  32. …i find it interesting that not only do the two most ‘arrogant fucks’ in cycling, lance edward gunderson & alberto contador valasco, who are the two most adamentally vociferous deniers of their doping practices, have both had major surgery on their heads…

    …i wonder if that had a particular effect on those two…they’re both the type to paste beg smiles on their face & yet stab friends in the back over the ‘business’ of cycling…

  33. I was on EPO for 3 years as an anemia treatment…it’s brilliant…I rode like a maniac…hemoglobin of 145!…

  34. @09-Mere pocket change compared to the rathole that was Solyndra. Just sayin’…

  35. Just to put it out there – To me what’s really important here is not that he doped, like so many others at the time(s) but that he aggressively attacked the credibility of anyone who simply told the truth. IMO the real reason why he is a despicable human being is that he made people like Betsy A. suffer horrible indignity and damnation just for being honest. He threatened people and basically forced (maybe slightly too strong a word) others to dope or lose their job. He ruined the careers and in many ways the lives of people who either called him out on his shit or that just told the truth about their own shit (Simeoni). Imagine having your pro cycling career basically ruined because of him. But seriously, the way he treated people is the real issue here – diagnose him however you want; sociopath, arrogant asshole, whatever… he’s the kid in your 7th grade math class that terrorized the weaker students and got away with it. He’s the dude in high school who always got his way at the expense of everyone else. He’s the guy at your office who keeps getting promoted over everyone else and stepping on everyone around him (even “friends”) to move up the ladder and each time one of his co-workers transfers to another department he threatens them. If anyone even questions why he got the promotion or the corner office he goes to the CEO and ruins their image, stifling their professional future. He’s the guy that comes into the bike shop and demands shit and when you so much as whisper “what’s with this guy?” he gets you not only fired from your only job but he spreads a rumor about you through the all the shops in town that you were fired for stealing 8 speed thumb shifters. He’s the guy that comes over and fucks your wife while you’re out busting your ass in a factory… ok, that last one was getting out of hand, but you see the point.

    Call him an American Hero; a baller; a crusher; a bicycle awesomizer; a dick-waving thug; a corn-crusted mud monkey; whatever you wish. That’s up to you to decide.
    For me, the reasons why he sucks are his tremendous character flaws and the absolutely indefensible way that he treated people, took advantage of them, and destroyed reputations and careers of decent people who didn’t deserve it.

  36. So, here’s a lawyerly thought on this. Not that I support Armstrong. I don’t. He carefully didn’t lie in this commercial. It is his body. Apparently, he can do whatever the fuck he wants with it. And, he probably was on his bike 6 hours a day. No mention of what he did with the other 18 hours.

  37. But as far as we know, he gets to keep the Nike money, right? And the Oakley money, he’ll keep that too, I suppose. How about Trek, they askin’ for any money back? Didn’t think so. Michelob, USPS, Discovery, Radio Shack? Anyone? Not yet, anyway.

    So even in disgrace he walks away a very, very wealthy guy. And the moral is lie, cheat & steal to get to there, just don’t get caught. Well played, Sir Lance-a-lot!

    My kids need more role models like this guy.

    (PS-It’d be cool if he did a commercial where he pulls a needle out of a rock. Maybe after Ulrich gives it a few tries.)

  38. look I maybe off on my own here but at this point folks what is the diff between VDB & LA?

  39. AZcutter……THANK-YOU!!

    I know VDB was no where near the kind of dick that cancer jesus is and didn’t manipulate his team members to the extent of La, but i find it kinda fucked up how VDB is hailed around here as a hero and LA is pissed on. I love DC and everyone that posts here but y’all think your shit don’t stink and frankly need to STFU and go ride your fucking bikes, stop bitching about this shit and lets get hammered.

  40. Pinchflat for the fucking win!!

    It’s not the doping, it’s the lying, coercion, and aggression, all from a supposed high horse when it’s really straight out of the gutter.

    What I want to know is why we stand by while it’s business as usual with all the other major sports. Cycling at least deserves some credit for acknowledging the issue and taking some steps to fix it.

  41. Depressing, demoralizing, irritating, you name it…
    But still, I want to ride a bike. Not because these a-holes, but despite those a-holes.
    Armstrong, I could almost understand it: he found himself becoming the promise to so many people, that has to keep on lying. My beef with him is that should be a bigger man and accept what he did. And with the attitude of a bully. Kind of want to punch him in the face
    With the rest, I have somehow a bigger issue: especially Vaughters. To start a team, and have on that team a group of people that he knew had doped in the past (Vande Velde, Danielson and Zabriskie), as he did, and still label his team as a clean team, a new kind of team, and all that bull-crap… You know, Vaughters, go and jump from a train, because your choice of inaction is just plain cheating, like doping again!
    Leipheimer hurts due to be the local golden boy, Barry hurts because his child book and writing.
    And Hincapie… well, so sorry he goes to retirement like this. And after all those years, it was the one we all wanted to be clean, pure effort.
    The others, well, at least they confessed already.
    And last, we all the ones that love the sport, because we closed our eyes to what the planners of those inhuman grand tours routes, that would not have been conquerable unless inhuman efforts. With the results that we all have seen. We were and are, to some degree, part of these bad news
    Some people would respond as hey drop it, forget and forgive… blah, the fucking blah blah!
    None of that because it is about integrity and honor, and if you do not have then, then you should not been riding a bike in the first place, especially in a pro peloton… Because you are an example, inspiration, etc for some many kids, and to turn around and do shit like this, you just deserve what you got! Plant winds and harvest storms, as we say in my country.

    You know, this past Sunday it was a year since my friend Matt Wilson died on his b-day bike ride. I went to Los Alamos in
    Santa Rosa, CA and tried to climb that one. No such luck: that hill is a bitch, for more reasons than one. But if I did it, pushing pedals and walking (yeah, walking… there, no shame on that) it would be only to honor a friend that to me embodied the pure joy of the bike: fun, energetic, philosophical, you name it.
    We are all disappointed. But it was never the fault of the bike itself. And that is what will keep me riding it. That, and the memory of a good friend.

  42. sorry fellas but the distinguishing between a doper who was a nice guy a and a doper who was a dick is weakass. Dopers all suck, they all fucked this sport up in 1969, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2012 to name just a few. We gonna come clean and whipe this shit stain away from this sport then so be it but picking and choosing based on who was more of an ass is trivial.

  43. I’m gonna have to go ahead and come down on Mr. AZCutter’s side here.

    If you think pro cycling is clean today, you’re an idiot. If you think pro cycling will be clean any time in the near future, you’re deluded.

    So I ask again, why beat up on Lance? Being a dick isn’t illegal, so don’t get all butthurt over it. There are legions of other “baller” cyclists EACH EXACTLY AS GUILTY AS LANCE ARMSTRONG. Why do they get a free pass?

    And I ask again, why do the major ball-and-stick leagues get a free pass, while some spandex-clad parade gets torn to shreds, its heroes, its ballers, its champions randomly and/or emotionally defiled? Why shouldn’t the NFL, a billion-dollar enterprise, lead this battle?

    Forest, trees, people. Don’t let your emotions get the better of you. Pro cycling is still pretty goddamn baller and FUCK THE USADA for picking on my favorite sport.

  44. …so, instead of constantly berating the usada & reminding us about YOUR emotional attachment to them, why don’t you lead the charge & lobby the usada to investigate the stick n’ balls sports, mikey…

    …& 98% of the commentators here don’t think the other dopers deserve a free pass as you constantly allude to but most recognize, by the published facts, that the armstrong/bruyneel consortium were the ringleaders of the most organized doping scandal in cycling & if they’re not thoroughly investigated, the same thing can happen again…

    …history repeats itself when we don’t learn from our mistakes…

  45. “instead of constantly berating the usada & reminding us about YOUR emotional attachment to them,”

    @BGW— what “emotional attachment” do you refer to? My ten years as a professional in the analytical chemistry industry, selling and servicing the quarter million-dollar chromatography/spectroscopy instrument systems to perform the exact “forensics” you refer to? Yeah, I’m real emotional about that shit.

    “why don’t you lead the charge & lobby the usada to investigate the stick n’ balls sports, mikey”

    Because I don’t give a fuck about ball-and-stick sports. I prefer to follow cycling, and cycling is getting royally screwed in the current debate.

    “history repeats itself when we don’t learn from our mistakes”

    Indeed it does. USADA (or WADA, call it what you will) have been chasing their tails and making sweet, cooing noises since the Festina affair, when was that, twenty five years ago? Did you see that this year’s Tour of Turkey winner got popped for EPO? See any pattern of total ineffectiveness here? Political posturing and media whoring? Take your time, I’ll wait.

  46. …okay…i stand & applaud your ability to defend your position & yet not offer any real solution…

    …i’m done…

    …absolutely…

  47. Timely title and pic BJ. Wonder how wonder boy is sleeping nowadays. Who’s coming out with Liestrong gear, oh yeah, Nike right?

  48. MIkey , so emotional, just like a school girl who made a bad choice…in this case LA is your man.

  49. Guys,

    Be nice to Mikey, he’s in denial. Well, no, not the river in Egypt, except he may be but I don’t think so, that was Moses, or was it Charlton Heston? (I get them confused).

    He’s discovered a false Idol. Holy Shit! He is Moses!, sorry, Charlton Heston, (I get them confused), would this be a good time to ask where you stand on Gun Control Mikey?

    Perhaps not, take your time buddy, we’re here for you..

  50. @guest & Hurben—

    Perhaps you lads haven’t been paying attention. I have never once suggested that Lance is innocent, nor a nice person. I do suggest that the vitriol aimed at him is based on emotion, rather than the facts of the debate, and that tearing down pro cycling’s top celebrities is bad for the sport.

    If either of you guys have points to make regarding these issues, I;’m all ears. Puerile taunts are weak.

    I do have carefully-considered and rational arguments regarding gun control, based on facts, if you want to hear them, which I suspect you don’t.

  51. ok Mikey, facts of the debate. Are the former team mates lying about doing drugs with Armstrong? all of them must be lying for there to be any debate of the merits of the outcome of the case. do you believe they are all lying?

    why did Armstrong give money to Ferrari all those years? Why did he consult on Triathlon training with him? Armstrong proclaimed to have broken the professional relationship ages ago, seems this is un-debatable.

    your big blind spot here is that one the one hand you are only willing to look at the facts of the case against LA, never mind him being a prick. That is ok. But your have an emotional position in the fact that “tearing down pro cycling’s top celebrities is bad for the sport.”

    if you apply your facts based inclination to the effects of the LA debacle on the sport, your arguing points become unreasonable. If LA is a doper it is better if he is found out and the signal is sent that cheating is not condoned. THAT is a fact-based and rational conclusion.

    facts based arguments on the case mixed with emotional argument about the implications for cycling is intellectually inconsistent and likely dishonest in some peoples eyes. pick a paradigm and apply it equally.

  52. HATERS GONNA HATE

    if we are to clear this sport of all these cheating fucks over the decades of sport then we tear down all the DOPERS, not just a fella or team who did it better (hiding the scam) than the rest.

    http://youtu.be/r6ldvKn40sE

  53. hahahaaha:
    “Due to the seemingly insurmountable evidence that Lance Armstrong participated in doping and misled Nike for more than a decade, it is with great sadness that we have terminated our contract with him”

  54. “Are the former team mates lying about doing drugs with Armstrong?”

    @Barry— your position is well-stated, sir. I don’t know who’s lying, we never will, and it doesn’t matter. I wonder though, is it okay for the squealers to get a six-month suspension, while LA gets life? Why does Lance deserve preferential mistreatment? Because he’s a dick? Not good enough.

    These former teammates are now all confessed dopers, with legions of others still “at large.” If you think assassinating Lance is somehow improving the sport of professional cycling, while all the others get a free pass, we’re going to have to disagree. I don’t think I’m being emotional about this.

    Me, I’m sick and tired of people who know nothing about cycling, declaring, “they’re all dopers.” This morning, I sadly watched a respected pro denying doping on facebook— why the fuck should he face that? Once again, what ever happened to “innocent until proven guilty?” This is the message that the general public is getting, and I think it’s detrimental to the sport. Don’t you agree?

  55. “If LA is a doper it is better if he is found out and the signal is sent that cheating is not condoned. THAT is a fact-based and rational conclusion.”

    @Barry— fact-based and rational… except that confessed squealers get a plea deal, and until the winner of the 2012 Tour of Turkey gets popped for EPO. Yeah, that “cheating is not condoned” message is getting across real good, innit?

  56. @76 – no i don’t think all the suspensions are correct. But some of them probably are. I think Levi should be banned for life as well, second offence and all. the others cooperated and got reduced sentences, that is how most systems work. Give to get, like it or not. Armstrong refused to cooperate. no give, big get.

    Detrimental to the sport? Maybe, or maybe it is a fair reaction given reality. I understand how you don’t like it but it might not actually be that unreasonable. And i would not feel too sorry for a pro racer having to defend himself, they are well paid for their “pain and suffering”, especially these days. Sometimes stereotypes exist because they have merit by and large.

    as far as Turkey goes, he got popped and suspended according to the rules. what is wrong with that?

  57. “…i must say…” that everybody’s favorite marty short character would likely be the delightful ed grimley but the chain smoking, heavily into denial & oh so shady defense attorney nathan thurm obviously has a few fans around here…

    “…it’s so funny to me that you would say that…” is his defensive posture whilst fact after undeniable fact is piled up before him…

    http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=martin+short+characters&tnr=21&vid=&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DU.4814985501474831%26pid%3D15.1&tit=Nathan+Thurm+interviewed+by+Robert+F.+Kennedy+Jr. …

    …just sayin’…

  58. “as far as Turkey goes, he got popped and suspended according to the rules. what is wrong with that?”

    @Barry— you continue to state your opinions well, sir. The problem I have with the Turkey EPO sanction is that it’s STILL GOING ON, twenty-five years later. Who else doped and didn’t get caught? Dozens? Hundreds? No way of knowing— all I see are mid-pack riders in their sunset years being squeezed by The Man into squealing on their more successful teammate, and that fellow’s subsequent crucifixion in the Court of Public Opinion, death by press release, still never failed a doping control. And we’re supposed to look forward to dozens or hundreds more such cases, at least until the media spotlight dims or they run out of stoolies? I can’t say I feel real warm and fuzzy about that.

    Anti-doping is a ludicrous goat-roping exercise that clearly serves as little or no deterrent.

  59. …careful, barry…you’re being catered to whilst our would be attorney mikey continues his right to intellectually defend an untenable situation…

    …personally i don’t wish to discuss ‘case details’ anymore but the armstrong situation, playing out on the grand scale that it is, just might provide the impetus & opportunity to take anti-doping in our sport past the “…ludicrous goat roping exercise…” that some see it…

    …if so, perhaps we might ALL come to agreement, ya ???…

  60. …@ elk…now that armstrong has stepped down as the titular head of the ‘livestrong foundation’, where he to actually stop the denials & admit to his transgressions, i might start wearing BOTH my ‘livewrong’ & ‘livestrong’ bracelets…

    …were he to do so, the man who undoubtedly has millions stashed away would likely be sued for his past ‘performance incentives’ if not also by the various people affected financially due to having been black-balled by armstrong in his protection of the omerta…

    …they, in particular, would likely have a harder time making their case but i’m sure there is still great concern in the armstrong camp over the millions in incentive bonuses he received…

    …it would behoove trek & nike (& oakley when they come to their senses) to all donate millions of dollars of the profits they made off his name, to the livestrong foundation or better yet to some other cancer awareness organization…

    …these companies ‘knew’ & benefited from armstrong’s high profile & even though they were complicit, they could make certain amends by doing so…

  61. …& yes, i’m aware they’ve all made significant donations over the years but now is the time to ‘lump sum’ it…

  62. and since a lot of the now confessed dopers have sing, now because they felt in the past that they did not have a chance… well now is the time for all those using some kind of shit or the other to come out clean and really do something for the sport if they really love it. They have a golden opportunity, and they should be hold responsible for their decision. Does not matter if you are grand tour winner or a domestique. Now is the time to be honest.

  63. @rev dick— “gun control” is a completely bizarre issue in America today. Like the current Lance debate, it’s dominated by blind emotional arguments made by people who will never, ever change their opinions.

    Guns are machines designed and built for violent human death. Humanity husbanded livestock for thousands of years before guns were invented, so the hunting argument is irrelevant.

    Set that aside— hunting for food has made sense in many cultures through recent history. The problem I have is with handguns.

    Handguns, obviously, are machines designed and built for violent human death, but here’s the kicker— they’re useless for anything else. Rifles or shotguns are superior in every way in hunting, and just as good for sport. So no one, except maybe the police and armed forces, who violently kill people for a living, has any valid use for a handgun.

    Twenty thousand Americans suffer gunshot wounds every year, almost all of them from handguns, almost all of them felony crimes. Eliminate handguns, save literally thousands of lives every year. QED.

    But Mikey, you ask, you own a handgun. What up? Good question.

    My handgun is an honest-to-god Model 1913 Colt .45 ACP. It was manufactured at the Springfield Armory in 1913. My grandfather carried it as a sidearm in France during the Big One in ’17-18, for the professional, paid purpose of killing German soldiers. I inherited this old war gun from my father when he died. It’s kind of rusty and the action is only so-so. My dad claimed he never fired it, and I’ve only run three or four magazines worth through it. (We did some shooting on our desert trip last spring.) It has no actual use other than as a family souvenir. I don’t cling to any fantasy of executing a crack-addled ninja who’s about to murder my wife.

  64. Carlos I agree this would be the time to do it for everyone in the pro-peleton or Masters here in the states. If I was UCI and WADA I would set it up like this 6months to come clean about your past, free of charge, no penalty to previous performances, call it the Needle Years of racing. After that 6 month deadline, anyone caught doping would receive a lifetime ban from all competitive sports that WADA looks after.

  65. Not bad. 90 comments. Lance then, fuels this site, a little. One more way to cash in on a guy who sold his soul, then went on to do superhuman feats and bring two wheels back into the American Reality and meanwhile, give the little-dick motherfuckers yet another man bigger than themselves something to chip away at.

    Listen, pussies: go win the Tour ONE time, doped or not. Fuck Cheryl Crow and both the Olsen Twins (and their mothers) and then come back here and judge Sir Lance. I’d rather drink with him anyday. And your mothers.

  66. …this weekend is the ‘livestrong challenge’, a gathering in austin which celebrates the 15th year of their foundation with a huge group bike ride & other activities…

    …all the faithful will be there & with the house of cards now collapsed, i’m wondering if cancer jesus will use the opportunity to step up & reveal his past indiscretions to what’s left of his adoring throng…

    …the timing would be excellent, publicity wise, surrounded by the faithful & we know our boy plays to the crowds but then again, with johan bruyneel figuring he can stretch the truth a little longer, armstrong might have to remain mum in support…

  67. “…this weekend is the ‘livestrong challenge’, a gathering in austin

    armstrong might have to remain mum in support…”

    @BGW— Are you suggesting the alleged perp may decline the opportunity to make a full, public confession! Go on, you’re joshing. {rolling eyes}

  68. …as a ‘pragmatic thinker’, especially in light of how the cards are falling, you don’t see how a public admission would go a long way to helping the already tarnished he’s riding into the dust, huh ???…

    …i think the real issues involve the legalities surrounding his past ‘incentive clauses’

    …only a true sociopath would wish to continue perpetuating the fraud…

  69. …excuse me…that should read “…already tarnished image…”

    …see that ???…it’s so tarnished, i forgot to mention it the first time around…

    …i’m out…

  70. “as a ‘pragmatic thinker’, especially in light of how the cards are falling, you don’t see how a public admission would go a long way to helping the already tarnished he’s riding into the dust”

    @BGW— my opinion does not matter. I reckon you and Mr. Armstrong may be at odds on this point.

  71. Awesome AfricanSingle,many thanks, I do like Zaipro’s cartoons. Generally the more political ones where he’s holding the government to account.

  72. The Olsen twins are skanky.

    I wouldn’t fuck them with a stolen dick.

    And at my age I’d fuck just about anything.

    And AfricanSingle…..that cartoon was priceless.

  73. …i need me a “DON’T FUCK W/ FLOYD”
    …’signed Lance Armstrong’ – custom made T-shirt…

    …just sayin’…

  74. “[Bicycling magazine's] point is that the pursuit of Armstrong cannot possibly yield justice. Incomprehensibly inconsistent decisions have been handed down against other former champions. Problematic deals have been hammered out with active professionals to advance the case against Armstrong. The podium finishers who might inherit his yellow jerseys are a dubious bunch. The whole thing is a mess.”

    Well stated; my point exactly.

    By the way, did all you pitchfork-and-torch bunch notice that Michele Scarponi and Dennis Menchov went down? Gosh, those guys won some big race in Italy, didn’t they? Oopsie!

    Pro cycling sucks these days.

  75. “…well stated…”, my ass…

    …first off, it hasn’t required a rocket surgeon to realize that “…the whole thing is a mess…”, bud…it’s been a mess for years…it’s just concluding one major climax with some real info…

    ‘bicycling magazine’ has understandably had the taste of lance armstrong’s ass on the tip of it’s tongue for years…he sold bikes, gear, mags & vids & the sport, so ya, they’re still being careful how they craft their words…

    …but hey, pay attention…prudhomme said eons ago that no one was about to claim the win for those years, so that’s a none factor…

    …beyond that, the story is better & more completely told by various new york times articles…they don’t have a dog in the fight…

    …i’m not even gonna bother to link ‘em…if anybody wants to limit their view at this point in time, it’s not my job to make ‘em a believer…

  76. So BGW, how about those Scarponi and Menchov kids? Free pass? Lifetime ban? Cue the Jeopardy music…

    Pro cycling sucks these days.

  77. @Mikey,

    Riiiiiiiight……

    Because they’re SUCH a credible source of deep, analytical cycling wisdom, the Wall Street Journal of the cycling world, Ay?

    Bill Strickland has Flip Flopped more about WhatsHizName over the years than a freshly caught Snapper flopping on the deck.

    Until you grab it by its tail & smack its head against something very solid, & then it’s still & dead, sort of like TheCyclistWhoCanNotBeNamed’s credibility & career.

    I wonder if Bill is going to go White out TCWCNBN’s endorsements of his POS book?

    Don’t worry Mikey, take a few moments to sit there & stretch that rubber yellow band, we’ll get through this together.

    We’re here for you Buddy.

  78. @Hurben: Answer my question— Scarponi and Menchov, free pass or lifetime ban?

    Pro cycling sucks these days.

  79. Mikey Mate,

    get over yourself.

    As I tell my daughter, Life isn’t fair, Life just is.

    Scarponi & Menchov are not arrogant, bullying arseholes who intimidated & tried to destroy anyone who challenged them. That is my main beef.

  80. More laughs:
    “In less than a week, Lance Armstrong has lost all of his endorsement deals.”

  81. …how about scarponi & menchov ???…

    …simple enough…as in most ‘free market’ legal systems, if they cooperate, insomuch as offering useful information, in this case, to help shut down the doping practice, they’ll likely get a deal, ya ???…

    …if not, well, there’s a precedence for that too, ya ???…

    …& hurben, myself & a lotta folks do not like bullies…especially the two faced ones…

    …how about you ???…does it bother you that armstrong actively pursued negative, intimidating & demoralizing campaigns against honest people whilst obfuscating the truth for his own glory ???…

  82. …btw…patty mcquaid & the uci, even without admitting to their own complicity in this saga, have the ability to change the whole complexion of how things unfold but they’ve chosen to go the sanctimonious route as if it distances them from the truth…

    “…you can fool some of the people all the time & all of the people some of the time…” but as heinie’s pal lance just proved, “…you can’t fool all the people, all the time…”, mr mcquaid…

    …just sayin’…

  83. all I gots to say is, Tinker Juarez is so fucking harder than all you and isn’t because he rides faster than you

  84. “Scarponi & Menchov are not arrogant, bullying arseholes who intimidated & tried to destroy anyone who challenged them. That is my main beef.”

    @Hurben— so it boils down to a personality contest? How does that relate to “justice,” or “cleaning up” the sport.

    You guys are tearing down the sport you profess to love.

  85. The haters have built a house of cards at low tide here. The UCI has decreed that seven Tours de France had no winner. That’s right, just a blank in the record books. Pretty sad, huh? Anyone wonder why?

    Because all seven second place finishers ARE SANCTIONED DOPERS.

    I’m pretty sure I know who won those bike races.

  86. @guest— you’re being a dipshit, dude. Put down the pitchfork and let go of the negativity. You’ll be a happier person.

  87. Just to be clear: that final TT in the Giro a couple years back, where Menchov went in with barely a minute’s lead, threw his TT bike down on the wet cobbles, got on the spare and won the whole enchilada… that was fucking baller, even if he was doped to the gills. Any of you haters gonna disagree? No? Didn’t think so.

    Just remember who was prosecuting a personality contest, justice served by a howling mob, when they come for you. Have any of you idiots even read Kafka? That book scared the shit out of me when I was twenty years old, and no, I haven’t forget that lesson.

  88. Talk about negative and delusional…your logic is completely irrefutable due to the complete lack thereof.

    Serious question, are you stoned all the time or something? You remind me of people I know that are so doped up that their logic only makes sense in their own brain. You really seem troubled.

  89. …mikey…so, did lance &/or his minions invite you down to the austin ranch for the u.s. formula 1 grand prix ???…

  90. …& mikey…you ask a lotta questions but you’ve become extremely selective about just which ones you aknowledge or directly respond to..kinda like armstrong, actually…

    …so, i’ll ask again…

    how about you ???…does it bother you that armstrong actively pursued negative, intimidating & demoralizing campaigns against honest people whilst obfuscating the truth for his own glory ???

    …i ask because this goes beyond any ‘personality contest’ you allude to…his actions ultimately affected whether he could get away with more cheating & thus more race wins…

    …waiting patiently for real discourse, not the deflective campaign you’ve chosen to engage in…

    …thanks…

  91. “are you stoned all the time or something? You remind me of people I know that are so doped up that their logic only makes sense in their own brain. You really seem troubled.”

    @guest— ad hominem arguments are the last resort of the ignorant. Yes I’m troubled— you haters are tearing down my favorite sport.

  92. “mikey…so, did lance &/or his minions invite you down to the austin ranch for the u.s. formula 1 grand prix”

    @BGW— sadly, no, but GOD DAMN that would be a fun weekend. You just can’t beat the F1 circus for a good show, and I’m really pained to be missing this U.S. round. I’ve attended six Grand Prix in the U.S. and Canada and it’s been a total hoot every single time.

    My prediction? Young S. Vettel in the Red Bull goes through the first turn in the lead, has a 1.2s gap at the end of lap one, and drives away, sealing his third consecutive World Championship.

    You want a wild video clip? Google up “delta wing road america.” Holy shit, that looks scary.

  93. …the dopers are tearing down your (our) favorite sport…

    …wake up…

    …in light of how this is the biggest ‘scandal’ in the history of cycling, this is a opportunity to cleanse & rebuild your (our) favorite sport AND lead the way for the cleanimg up of the major sports…

  94. “how about you ???…does it bother you that armstrong actively pursued negative, intimidating & demoralizing campaigns against honest people whilst obfuscating the truth for his own glory ?

    …i ask because this goes beyond any ‘personality contest’”

    @BGW— you and all the other haters must be deliberately ignoring my point— you can’t be that dumb.

    I don’t care about Lance. I have never once suggested he’s innocent or a nice fellow. IT’S IRRELEVANT.

    I’ll say it for the twentieth time: If he doped (which has been deduced from circumstantial evidence and the corroboration of PAID PROFESSIONAL STOOLIES, almost fifteen years after the fact), his sanction should align with other sanctions in the sport. It does not. It’s a kangaroo court, trial by popularity contest, like a fucking karaoke competition or something. We’re expected to believe that no one won those seven Tours? How stupid does the UCI think we are? That’s not justice, and it’s not cleaning up the sport.

  95. “in light of how this is the biggest ‘scandal’ in the history of cycling, this is a opportunity to cleanse & rebuild your (our) favorite sport AND lead the way for the cleanimg up of the major sports”

    @BGW— Sure, if handing down six months here and a lifetime there, at the whim of an unofficial and insanely ineffective and biased judgmental body is somehow “cleansing.” To me, it’s pure Kafka. Did you read the synopsis I linked? The parallel is uncanny.

    By the way, did you notice how Lance’s stoolie teammates signed away their rights to compete in the Olympics. Gee, that’s odd, I saw a number of SANCTIONED DOPERS riding in this summer’s events. Why does Millar get a free pass and Leiphemer is banned? Makes my stomach turn.

    And if you think nailing Lance up will “lead the way for the cleaning up” of the NFL, I suggest you enjoy your unicorn ride and all those delicious skittles and lemonade.

  96. @Mikey You’re beginning to froth at the mouth. No one here is STUPID just because we disagree with you. You are just the last fanboy standing.

    You can’t be serious in your comparison of “The Trial” and the unravelling of the biggest and (most successful) doper in cycling history? The Trial is absurdist fiction. Armstrong is an arrogant bully.

    Living vicariously through those dopers is taking a toll on you. It may be time for an intervention.

    First, you will be forced to drink beer. Lot’s of it.

    Then you will ride your bike.

    Ski season will be here soon. Imagine you’re on first chair after 3 feet of fresh powder and your only task on this day is to leave your mark on the mountain.

    See the mountain. Be the mountain.

  97. …well, mikey, you’ve certainly proven to this crowd that you have your own logic & most particularly, your own method of addressing various subjects…

    …even if you’re not a fan, lance armstrong owes you a huge debt of gratitude…(thus my facetious comment regarding an invitation for the g.p.)…

    …you are, in your own way, part of the problem because you can’y seem to identify the real problem…

    …but in my book, you just crossed a line…

    …& as an artist, you paint with too broad of a brush…

    …so, FUCK YOU, dude…(that’s right, bro…that’s real emotion)…i’m henceforth too busy enjoying my skittles & lemonade whilst engaging in riding my unicorn to bother w/ your quasi-intellectual approach…

  98. “You are just the last fanboy standing.

    You can’t be serious in your comparison of “The Trial” and the unravelling of the biggest and (most successful) doper in cycling history? The Trial is absurdist fiction. Armstrong is an arrogant bully.

    Living vicariously through those dopers is taking a toll on you. It may be time for an intervention.
    First, you will be forced to drink beer. Lot’s of it.
    Then you will ride your bike.

    Ski season will be here soon. Imagine you’re on first chair after 3 feet of fresh powder and your only task on this day is to leave your mark on the mountain.”

    @Cap’n— calling me a ‘fanboy’ is weak. Yet again, note that I have never once suggested that Lance is either innocent or a nice guy. My objection is specifically with the kangaroo court currently selling pro cycling down the river for pennies on the dollar. Six months for you, lifetime for you, no appeals process. NO ONE WINS.

    Me, I’ve already self-intervened. I rode (in the rain) and now I’m drinkin’ beer.

    And you’re preachin’ to the choir re: skiing… I own a slopeside condo, I can ski right onto the front deck. I got my firewood split, hauled, sledged in and stacked this weekend, before the road snows over. There is snow on the ground and the and with luck it’ll be skiable within weeks. Prob’ly have to start with some rainy BC brushwhacking before the lifts start turning, but I’m game. Waxy side down, brother.

  99. Why does it have to be about some higher cause? I’m just happy to see the prick get what he has coming.

    Justice? Laughable. It is simply rules and punishments, I don’t think anyone had a lofty goal of justice. But LA getting eff’ed up is as close as it will get.

  100. I forgot to mention I used to be an Armstrong fanboy. That’s right. But then I saw the light.

    Pro road racing will survive. Pharmstrong has been made an example of that no matter how many lawyers you have, how much public acclaim you have, no matter how aggressive you are to people who want to speak the truth and no matter how many politicians you buy you can still fall hard.

    And that may deter future cyclists from following his path….Oh who am I shitting. As long as money is involved people will still cheat and lie and steal. So fuck it. Get out and ride and ski and board.

    And one more thing, Mikey. Good luck with your self-intervention. But stay away from that Shiner Bock and fucking Michelob Ultra.

  101. Well. This thread turned to shit.

    But I’m with Mikey.

    This is a witch hunt that you would never see in any other sport.

    And I ain’t a “Armstrong fanboy”. I think he’s a monstrous dick. But I also think he deserves a fair trial.

    This is not Soviet Russia.

  102. And I didn’t ride my bike today….but I did/am drinking a shitload of beer.

    So how many beers is too much ??

  103. “And one more thing, Mikey. Good luck with your self-intervention. But stay away from that Shiner Bock and fucking Michelob Ultra.”

    Aye aye, Cap’n… I’ve been on a serious Winter Hook jag lately, with the cold rain having come down hard on my cycling program. The autumn mud season is the worst time of year in Pugetropolis.

  104. So how many beers is too much ??

    Good question. I’ve often wondered about that myself.

    In your case, Triple T, I’d say it’s every time you post a reply on this site that begins…”this thread has turned to shit”

    And who says this isn’t Soviet Russia? If it were and I was commissar I would send your drunken fat ass to Siberia. Of course your blood alcohol level would be so high you’d never freeze to death when you passed out in a snowbank but the bears might get you.

  105. Shiner is crap. A light beer with caramel color added. The hangover starts before the bottle is done. There are a bunch of great breweries in Texas (Real Ale, Live Oak, St. Arnolds, Independence, Jester King, 512, Rahr & Sons…) and we’re fucking known for Shiner.

  106. @Cap’n Tony

    If you had the dick worthy of your petulant attitude you’d be President.

    Go fuck your self.

    And I end it thus…..This thread has turned to shit.

  107. Massachusetts has a lot of microbreweries like Ipswich, Cambridge Brewing Company, Mayflower, Watch Hill etc. etc. and what are we known for?
    Sam Adams, which isn’t even brewed her. The masses are asses.

    And speaking of asses. TripleT, do you remember what happened the last time we got in an insult battle? Go back to your bud lite and your midget porn and Don’t make me get medieval on your ass.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA1CBHebCeo

  108. @TripleT

    Midget porn isn’t good enough for you? There’s this joke I can tell here since no women ever read anything on this site especially not the replies.

    Question: describe the perfect woman?

    Answer: waist high, no teeth and a flat head to rest your beer on.

    Oh you’re right I can’t spell Masashucets. I had to look it up in the online dictionary.

    I thought it was spelled TripleTsucksfatcocksatthegloryhole.

  109. Jebus you guys, get a grip. The state where beantown abides can be spelled one of two ways: Taxachussetts, or Massatwoshits. Get it right.

  110. @Mikey

    You got me laughing my ass off there.

    I’ve long heard of Taxachussetts.

    But Massatwoshits ??? That’s fucking new.

    Let’s now see if Cap’n Tony can spell or even pronounce that. 10 bucks says he sprains his tongue trying.

  111. “But Massatwoshits ??? That’s fucking new.”

    @TTT— I worked for a Mass high-tech company for seven years in the 80s and 90s, and my boss was a Reb, and he would always call it “mass-a-tew-sits” but you knew he meant, “mass-a-two-shits.” He always kept a straight face and always got away with it. I admired that.

  112. @TTT— oh, the guy was a world-class dick. In 1993, he lost his job as my sales manager, so he fired me and took my territory. Real classy move.

  113. It’s funny, you post many, many posts that are ‘World Class Dickish’ the talk about being fired by a world class dick. I can’t help but wonder which of you was viewed as the bigger dickhead since his superiors chose to keep him over you. From what you’ve demonstrated on here of late I can understand their choice. Irrational, denial ridden babble doesn’t serve a person well.

  114. Again, you should read you own stuff and worry about your own negativity level, almost delusional.

  115. …le tour de france was in armstrongs sights not just as a rider…

    …it’s a true story that he spoke of hoping to become an owner a number of years ago…

    …i can’t help but think how exponentialy more ironic this saga would all be if armstrong had managed to pull together the kind of capital required to finance a takeover of le tour de france…

    …ultimately, i’m sure french pride would preclude that from ever happening but then again, the right offer can change the landscape…

    …just sayin’…

  116. …your suggestion would have legs, not a shred of doubt in my mind…sports entertainment sells & if you know going in that certain “normal” rules have been suspended, i guarantee there’d be an audience…

    …advertising money might be lost because a lotta corps are or pretend they’re bound by ethics but the viewing public would be there…

    …actually, he’d have likely just said – “…well…it’s my race & i don’t care what you guys say…i won it seven times, so, nahnananana !!!”…

  117. “I wonder if it would have become a non-tested event, as in all dopers welcome. Scary.”

    @guest— sort of like the NFL? $100+M in revenues every single weekend?

  118. Holy crap check out this twenty-four seconds of slow-motion video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzqMt0xHByM

    That Pedrosa kid has a firm grasp on the dynamics of his competition vehicle.

    (Surely he’s not a doper, either, although “arm-pump” corrective surgery is apparently common for this class of athlete.)

  119. And to see the other way it can go, here’s Stoner’s high-side from a few weeks ago. Yarly-yarlmeister in the house.

  120. High sides suck for everyone except the cameraman. Had a few high speed low sides in my life, 2 on a motorcycle, 1 on a bicycle. Funny thing is i got fucked up more from the bicyle crash than the 2 motorcycle crashes. I guess it’s the protection difference: leather beats lycra every day.

    What about this epic save?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-8Mwp-rTc

  121. F’n nuts. Mamola road some demo laps at Laguner when I was there this summer. Those old 500cc two-strokes were as vicious as the big, modern machines of today; narrow power band and curl-your toes acceleration “on the pipe.”

    I understand the hardest part about the modern bikes are the carbon brakes. We saw one of the pro riders throw it off because he’d failed to heat up the brakes properly. Just gnarly.

  122. Team,

    Clicking on the Pedal Pushers ad on the right & then reading his attitude toward the whole Lance debacle makes me ask why is that ad there?

    Does DC condone his attitude? because if so, I’m out of here..

    Yes that’s no loss to DC but I’ll still be able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning.

    Man’s a Fuckwit!

  123. @Hurben

    Did you read the messages on that “Defending Lance” page? Funny exchanges.

    Seems like there are many different attitudes here on DC. Some I agree with. Some I don’t.

    This guy is selling t-shirts and happens to be a fanboy. So what? He’s gonna have a lot of left over t-shirts, I reckon.

    If you really want to change cycling start with human nature.

    Think of all the people who made money off that fraud scumbag Pharmstrong for the past 15 years. The enablers, the sycophants and the co-conspirators, from the UCI to the media assholes like Phil Liggett and manufacturers like Trek. And on down to guys who wrench in the bike shops which sell overpriced Treks to the freds.

    These people have ZERO concern for the corruption. All they care about is green. As in fresh cash.

    And don’t even get me started on the way he defrauded the cancer community.

    Doping was the least of Cancer Jesus’ crimes.

  124. Pedal Pusher site is a perfect example of why disgraced athletes lose their sponsors.

    The guy has decided to stop selling the questionable t-shirt because of the negative attention.

  125. …i pointed this out back when pedal pushers was still selling the t-shirt on their site & ya, the real reason he’s stopped isn’t a fit of conscience, it’s the negative publicity…

    …i think the attitude he expresses is quite likely what a major percentage of the general public will ascribe to the armstrong situation when all is said & done…

    ..if aunt betty had “the cancer” & found comfort in the livestrong foundation, then every one of her family & friends, a whole circle of people, are gonna go – “well, that doping thing wasn’t good but you know, he helped aunt betty when she needed it…”…

    …for most folks, this really is peripheral to the “day to day” of their lives so they’ll read the headlines but they’re not going to delve too deeply…the basic attitude is “…seems like everybody in sports takes some kinda drug & lance is just one more of ‘em…”…

    …what’s unfortunate is that they’ll never really understand the part of the saga that i find most egregious, the systematic bullying…the use of lawyers & publicity campaigns to denigrate, abuse, vilify & belittle those who only wished to speak the truth…

    …that behavior literally affected the livelihood of a number of good people…you & i were deceived but their lives were dealt a hardship because they knew a truth about a man who wanted to be famous…

  126. And freely plagiarizing from another website who probably freely plagiarized from ….

    We’re all probably a bit Maillot Jaundiced by now.

  127. …a t-shirt may be just a t-shirt but the editorial behind it spoke volumes…

    …the armstrong situation has raised a lotta hackles, particularly in cyclings editorial world & while it’s absolutely “black n’ white” to some, it’s well shaded w/ gray to others…