As a general rule, I try not to do too much bitching about the industry, since I have, technically, been a part of it and reaped many benefits from it. I stopped working in a shop back in October and have since been a member of the real world, so I’m making some observations as of late that I could never see before.
For example: I have realized the recent absurdity of component pricing.
I am in the market for a new fork, and I have my eyes on this puppy:
Nice, eh?
Let’s talk for a moment, you and me, real nice-like, up close.
The last time I bought a fork new, I employee-purchased a Rock Shox Reba for about $200. That Reba has served me well, but it’s about at the end of its life, so I thought I’d look into the hype constantly swirling around Fox forks. I had one back in the day, liked it okay, but the seals kept exploding, so I got rid of it (to be fair, I got rid of the entire bike, not just the fork).
But hell, everyone raves about them, so I figured it would be good enough for D2…until I looked at the prices.
Now, I get a good deal at the bike shops here in town in most cases, and the owners are always generous. But when I looked at that price list, I could not believe the numbers I was seeing. Has fork technology REALLY progressed so much that this is what a fork should cost? As a man who has been elbow deep in just about every fork out there, I can assure you the answer is no.
So no fork for D2, at least not until I take out a second mortgage (which, I’m told, necessitates a FIRST mortgage. Damn).
Okay, onto other components. Definitely need a new saddle, so here’s the rundown of the situation:
I rode a Selle Italia Prolink for years and loved it. The cover has now started to peel, so I figure, hell, I’ll just get another one! Most comfortable saddle I’ve ever owned!
So I flipped through the ol’ QBP catalog and found my guy:
Beautiful!
I looked at the price, and this is what I saw:
Selle Italia Prolink………$ Fuck That
So I’m still rocking the ripped saddle right now.
I bring this up not just to bitch (though that’s partly the reason), but to point to a trend that extends far beyond just the bike industry. I mean, hell, I paid $70 to fill my tank with gas yesterday, so honestly, why shouldn’t the bike industry cash in on what is sure to be another boon of a summer for them?
Let’s not forget everyone else who has been riding all along, though. Here in Flagstaff, the price of a home is so high the locals can usually not afford to buy one because folks from Phoenix and San Diego want second homes here, most of which stand empty most of the year. A boon for Flagstaff? Sure. But what about the rest of us who make our living here and help keep this place going? You know, us, who fix the tourist bikes, serve the tourists food, mix up a nice gin and tonic for those thirsty tourists every night?
All I’m saying is it’s easy to alienate those who are most loyal to you when you just chase the dollars. By all means, chase those dollars, but at the end of the day, perhaps you should come back and hang out with the rest of us, since we like you so much.
I love those products above, and I single them out only because I am interested in owning them. I would gladly ride them…but not if I (and every other customer) is taken for a ride instead of riding.
Keep bikes accessible to people. They’ll be more likely to ride them.
I just did the ultimate wrong and bought a Chinese carbon road bike. This is mentally killing me…I tend to pride my bikes as made in Merikuh. A Dean. A Titus. A Milwaukee Bicyle Co. singlespeed. But talk about pricing you can’t beat. $430 on Ebay for a Pinarello clone? I’ll have the whole bike built for less $$ than my custom steel singlespeed cost. There is the very definition of competition AND capitalism…coming from a communist nation. If I’m a big bike company, I’m more than a little concerned. I’ve got three other friends that have done the same thing…and one of them OWNS a bike shop.
lol.
sfb ~ I’ve heard them referred to as a “Chinarello.”
my Scott CR1 Trophy Bike was fabricated in China, and it seems to be an excellent machine.
You are talking my language (without the deeper sadness kind of brotherhood I just read about in Gnome’s post).
My 1998 ride desperately wants to be left alone on a bike hook while I purchase a replacement but the prices are just shocking, even at kind pricing. I’m seriously thinking about buying a new steel hardtail frame from a smaller builder and a complete aluminum Chinese/Taiwanese bike to serve as a parts donor. There is no logic in the fact that this route is MUCH cheaper than just buying the steel frame and its associated build kit from the same source.
BTW, I have a WTB Silverado on each of my proper bikes (one each – road and mtb); I cannot find any real difference between the expen$ive Ti-railed and affordable Fe-railed versions. Both are very nice and are separated by something like 10 grams. Save your bread and buy the steel version.
Also, your very last fork ever just may be an open bath oil-and-spring Marzocchi (if you can find one). Twelve years plus, but only one wiper/seal and an oil change every couple seasons.
Anyhow, all of this is shallow after reading the aforementioned post by Gnome.
Ha…defoliant…I’ll be rocking my 2001 Marzocchi on tomorrow’s ride!
Jonny – I’ve been refering to it as Chi-talian.
Mikey – I’m guessing you paid more than $430 for that Scott, right? That’s the point.
I have 3 bikes currently: 20, 24, & 26 inch wheeled machines of destruction. All single speed, hard tail, and my Manitou fork on the mtb is at least 6+ yrs old and I bought it off of a buddy for 100 bucks at the time.
But I’ve also spent some time on the other side of the fence with a Kona Stab Dee-Lux full on DH rig. And after a season or so, the never ending cost of maintaining and riding just got real old.
Less is definitely more for me nowadays, the less moving parts the better.
Get a job! That’s what I say!
The argument about customers being WILLING to pay less usually ends with: well, why don’t you do something about it?
And what is that something? Usually a letter to manufacturers. Those letters then get ignored, unless there is a bulk of said letters, and even then, they usually get ignored. So how does one implement change, even on such a small scale (in the grand scheme of things, bike component prices are fairly small)?
Mmmmmm open bath Marzocchi, the first “real” fork. Takes a beating and keeps on keepin’ on. Simple to service too. As they age you should try a slightly heavier oil to adjust for the wear on the damper. I wish they still made the good stuff like that……. in a 29″ version. As a side note, a little Mother’s Aluminum Polish on the crown brings back the bling look. Chicks dig it. Just kidding, they really don’t.
If people by cheap(er) bikes, manufacturers will create & retailers will stock those cheap(er) bikes. Someone must be buying the candy, or else it wouldn’t be there.
…sometimes they build a better mousetrap but other times they just kinda ‘bling’ or ‘gee-gaw’ out the same ol’ mousetrap in order to sell more of ’em…& of course they usually raise the price…
…‘new’ can be fun but it doesn’t always mean ‘better’…
…lotta folks on this site have both the intelligence & the ability to know the difference & see through the bullshit…
“Mikey – I’m guessing you paid more than $430 for that Scott, right? That’s the point.”
sfb— I bought the Trophy Bike fully-assembled, fitted and custom kitted at one of the best LBSs in Pugetropolis. So yeah, it cost more than $430, but it’s been perfect for ~8000 miles. No complaints. (Except for the weather— today I was out on a steel bike with disc brakes and fenders.) Keep the rubber side down, brother.
D2 @59, write a letter with your wallet. Companies don’t care what you think, only what you buy or and this case, don’t buy.
Big Johnny @ 61 who’s buying the candy? go to your local MTB race and have a look at what the beginner, middle-aged “professionals”
Barry, agreed. My comment was more tongue in cheek. The candy is offered at the marketplace because the candy sells. I know just what you’re talking about, I’ve seen it at the MTB and road races. I’ve heard it described as “all horse, no cattle.”
That’s one of the interesting things about the sport of cycling – you can buy just what the pros ride (almost, generally, pretty much). You can’t do that in NASCAR.
What a bunch of hypocrisy. Welcome to the game that most of us Schmucks have been playing for years. While you were getting your EP’s, we have been paying full price or maybe 10-20% off for already overpriced bike parts at the LBS. Why do you think people use online sites now? When you can get the same fork for $250 less online, you damn straight should buy it then spend the extra buying other crap made in the People’s Republic of China. It’s all crap!!!! Will you actually enjoy your ride more? I guarantee you’ll forget the difference way the new fork rides in less than two months then want the next new fork or bike. Is it going to make you faster or win Leadville? Probably not. Let’s face it, cycling is so full of elitists (and whether you believe it or not, YOU ARE) that drive the prices up. Let the Doctors, Lawyers, and CEO’s buy all the 14 lb. bikes and I’ll enjoy dropping them on a 20 year old steel frame with down tube shifters. I say REVO-“F”ing-LUTION. Duct tape that old fork and suck it up. Drop a turd in a letter and send it to QBP, TREK and the like that muscle the LBS’s.
Interesting thread r/e the bling/candy whatever and the economics behind it.
The economics seem pretty simple to me. Some stuff is priced stupid because some folks will pay for bleeding edge. It seems there’s a current of thought in this thread that this is inappropriate and to the detriment of the larger community, and I don’t buy it.
I’ll put it out that probably 95% of the folks that have commented have at one or more times splashed out on some part/group/frame/fork that was much more than was necessary to do the job. Maybe most of the time that same person watches the nickels, cuts through the bullshit and makes pragmatic decisions, but every once in a while.. you splash out. You know you do.
and thats all the industry needs to support the top tier bling.
95% of the people 5% of the time and a very very few of the people all of the time.
You (we) can rail against the perceived injustice of an investment banker showing up for a cat nuthin’ race plastered with logos in a language he doesn’t recognize on a zillion dollar carbonium radvelo but what’s the point. That dude is a blip, and in a couple years some lucky punter is gonna pick up that carbonium radvelo off craigslist for a song and we’ll all applaud.
Worth mentioning also that the top tier shit often pays the overhead of development and design costs for good shit that trickles down to the mid level stuff in a couple years for more reasonable prices.
So, next time you see Fred out there on the bleeding edge Wunder bike or rockin’ the four digit$ fox fork, ask him how he likes it and quietly to yourself, thank him for fronting the cost of being the test bunny for new cool shit.
our LBS is one of the only shops in cincinnati that has affordable bikes. we have high end shops here that are reeediculous. our shop caters to the middle class. im proud to say i race CX on a 500.00 redline.
Is there a reason the bike tire costs as much as a car tire? Its…greed that makes the world go round…
@66 Trailer Park: I got an EP because I worked for it. That doesn’t make me spoiled. I’ll buy whatever goddamn parts I want to buy.
And I don’t think it’s a mystery why people shop online. Never made that argument, but don’t come down on the LBS; they’re making shit money too. They have to charge the prices they do, or they won’t stay open. Then what will you do when you need that tube in a pinch, or need that fork overhauled for the race but have no fucking clue what the difference is between a seal and a bushing?
You may dismount your high horse any time now.
D2: My stallion is named “Righteous Anger” and I may be thrown from my steed but here it goes.
“I’ll buy whatever goddamn parts I want to buy.” Great, then companies can determine their margins.
“They have to charge the prices they do, or they won’t stay open.” Agreed, my argument was toward the lack of options of the LBS to not use the wholesellers and also bike companies that try to put a full nelson on the shops to demand they stock a specific product. It does happen.
“Then what will you do when you need that tube in a pinch, or need that fork overhauled for the race but have no fucking clue what the difference is between a seal and a bushing?” In this situation, what I am actually buying is time and a service. That is different. Could I fix it? Sure. Would I rather pay someone who is a kick ass wrench to do it faster, sometimes and I truly have no problem with that.
It seems the real culprit is our affluence. A fork should not cost what I paid for an entire tricked out bike 15 years ago. >300% inflation???? It also translates to other industries such as healthcare and this IS my bigger problem because it is intertwined.
Lets say you fall from your new bike and fracture your shoulder. Well, then you come to me and I look at the x-ray, tell you the obvious, give you a sling, and tell you to follow up with an ortho surgeon. Your bill comes 3 weeks later and it is 3K. I can tell you I get less than 10% of that bill. Where is the rest going? As far as I am concerned, I am well compensated and can pay my ridiculous student loan, but you see a 3K bill. Was your service worth 3K. Hell no and I even believe that.
That is the bigger issue I struggle with. My wrath was a combination of one person going to Mexico to affordably have a tooth pulled and the cost of a Campy cassette I had to buy to fit the grupo that I purchased over 10 years ago, and your rant about the industry. It is indeed ALL CRAP!!!!! (BTW The cassette was 20% of the cost I originally paid for the group. Needless to say I bought a Miche and it works great.)
“It seems the real culprit is our affluence.”
Don’t worry. If we travel a bit further down our current economic path and have the same assclowns at the wheel, affluence will NOT be an issue.
sfb – I started trying heavier weights the second season – purchased very cheaply from a motorcycle shop! I have to say the bushings still have most of their original coating but I can’t really tell if the damper is wearing, although the grey-metallic oil that drains out at the irregular servicing might be telling me something.
buck – I too want a 29″ version for hardtail duty (don’t want full sus anymore on midwestern trails).
Plan A: sticking with 26″ and reusing the ’99 (’00?) Z1 BAM. Note: I immediately sold the SID that came on the bike and installed a “better” Manitou Ti-SX which turned out to be a complete POS (blown cartridge). Manitou was kind enough to take blame and send a replacement which I sold with uncut headtube for Marzocchi funding.
Plan 2: Going full rigid 29″.
All purely hypothetical until some cash starts flowin’.
My post mixes replies to sfb and buck, but you’ll figure it out.
Supply & demand. Obviously someone is buying all those Fox Forx because it’s pretty rare that you see them on sale, anywhere. Sure, I’d love to have one but I’m not going to pay $750 for a fork because that would be over half of what I paid for my Racer X.
Speaking of Titus, I was able to buy my Racer X for $1400 new because they over-produced for 2009 and then bought the farm in 2010. I know they got bought but who knows whether there will be any warranty coverage for existing frames in the long term.
I’ve just learned over the years to wait for big sales if I want something nice. You may not always get exactly what you want, but it’s the best way to get stuff cheaply.
Motherfuckers keep trying to reinvent the God damned wheel. Just roll the motherfucker, I say.
Rigid.
Fixed.
Now get off my lawn.
Buut it’s got the Kashima Coating!
Seriously though, a great reading thru the post and comments. We’ve all overpaid for stupid shit wether it be beer, bikes or broads. I don’t fault Fox for having expensive products, or anyone that can afford to buy it. I just buy a 100mm coil/oil Marz for a buck fifty brand new. that’s just where im at these days.
I get sick of seeing $5,000 bikes in every dirtrag review. Maybe it’s cuz I cant afford that shit right now. If I had the money would I buy a titzed out TallBoy, probably hell yes. Put it on top of my Porsche SUV and tour Idaho for a few mos. Well that shit aint in the cards at teh moment. it’s 11y/o hondas and ghetto fab ss’s for this kid.
“overpayed for broads”? Said “I do” almost thirty years ago. Son, you don’t know dick about overpaying.
I’m all about old cars and old bikes, if that’s what gets you through. I like good parts, but I have mostly old parts. Like everyone else. I’d like to replace my fork because I’m tired of overhauling it and it feels like a pogo stick at the moment, but a Fox ain’t in my future at that price.
Ride your bike. Good. Capitalism=big problem that ain’t going away.
Bottom line is, my chafed inner thigh wants a new saddle and my wrists, shoulders, and neck want a new fork. Fuck me, right?
Joetheelectrician,
I assumed you’d be a big proponent of Di2!
I’m afraid I’m at a loss. What is this “Di2” of which you speak of?
@72…. so true
Di2 = Electronic Dura Ace shifting
Got friction thumbies on the ’91 HooKoo. Got barcons (friction, natch) on my light touring bike. Running ol’ skoo Suntour Edge with downtube shifters on this old lugged Specialized Allez I scored for twenty bucks at a thrift shop. Got a Crosscheck, a Monocog and a 1976 Raleigh Supercourse, all fixed gears. At no time have I thought that their respective drivetrains have inhibited me from riding the where I want, how I want, as fast as I want. Your mileage may vary.
And not to be a smartass, but what happens when (not if) the electronics poop their drawers?
…joe…differences of opinions on other subjects aside, here’s s bit of trivia for you…
…i had a hand in designing a lot of the original equipment on that ’91 hoo koo…if you bought it second hand, some of it may have been changed but it came with a ‘trail tail’ saddle, ergonomic fisher logo-ed grips, the original asymmetrical toe clips (a right & a left) & on the frame itself, that little brake cable noodle behind the seat cluster & those shaped ‘bullet stop’ cable stops were all mine…prob’ly some other stuff i can’t think of right now…
…but hey, i use electricity every day so we’re even…
The brazeons are cool. That noodle thingie-Genius. The rest, not so much, at least for me.
First thing to go was the long stem and flatbar. Even then I was abit arthritic. Shorter stem and risers helped immensely.
The thing had a boinger fork. Rockshocks quadra or something. Yellow, it was. And I hate squish.
So I replaced it with a Tange rigid. Suspension corrected for 80 mm travel, and the boinger was-what?-63mm? Or 50, maybe. Which choppered it out some. Alot more muscle to negotiate tight trails, but wonderful on the open road. A backroad tourer was born.
The final fix was the Gripshift. Woulda been okay if the front was friction, but it was indexed. No good. I gots to have the ability to trim.
So I built it up with a Deore front, some random der in back (lower end road Shimano if memory serves) and get this-Drop bars. I figured Jacquie makes ’em look good so what the hell. Used Barcon shifters in friction mode. It was almost starting to feel like something an old man could ride.
Launched a chain and tweaked the derailer hanger, so it sat on the back burner for awhile. I just got done installing risers, a Tektro high-profile canti in front (gots to have fender clearance, Clarence) and Suntour friction thumbshifters. It’s getting tuned and adjusted as I type this. Probably I will install the rack and panniers from my Crosscheck. This will be the bike to take me where my fixed gears can’t, me being old and arthritic.
And yep, I bought it used maybe six years ago. Think I paid a hundred bucks. Just looking at that frame with the stickers that say “triple butted true temper”, “made in USA” and “designed in California by Gary Fisher”-Well alls I knows is this is a bike I will grow old(er) with. And if you had a hand in designing it, I’ll thank you on every ride.
And bgw? You can get mad at me, buddy. It’s cool. Heck, even Mrs. Joe could scalp me at least three times a week. Just don’t stay mad, okay? Life’s too short.
…check…
bit the bullet, bought a fork….
I’m out…just a statistic for the pricing lords now.
If you’re ever in State College check out Freeze Thaw Cycles. Given all the spiel about old parts (JOE) I’m sure you and JW would fall in love.
Keep On Peddlin’
I was just kidding. I wouldn’t ride Di2 either, unless I was a pro and got it for free.
Buck:
What fork did you end up getting?
…joetheelectricion…& when i say “…check…”, what i mean is that as long as mrs.joe keeps sending me that monthly check that she pays me to humor you, well gosh, how can i stay mad at you, ya ???…
She figures it’s cheap at twice the price if it keeps me out of her hair awhile, knowwuddimean?
…hurben…speaking of cycling equipment, i just arranged to buy a very sano allsop softride beam road bike for an extremely decent price from my buddy ‘sully’…this isn’t the version i’ve been riding with straight bars & the mtb stem but a polished aluminium frame, set up with tt/tri bars which i’ll replace with a shallow drop road bar…
…already toying with the idea of setting it up as a one-speed…maybe somewhere down the line, add a flip-flop rear hub & ride me some fixed…hmmm…
…gonna be interesting, either way…
D2, I got a Reba race SL from a shop. It was an upgrade orphan (can’t see why) that will find a good home in my stable. I swear that I’ll be better to this one that the last one. The SS has made me lazy with regular love to the ole’ steed. I’m gonna change muh ways.
Hi BGW,
I look forward to seeing a picture of the finished article, except that these bikes are never quite finished, are they?
I liked the one you were riding, with the Frankenstem & the Seat mount, (more details on that please), it’s a classic example of a Softride.
The idea of a Softride single-speed is interesting, maybe I’ll use one of my spare frames as a winter project, (yes it’s that time of year down here).
As an aside, I went up north of Auckland yesterday to a small coastal town that was hosting a Classic VW show.
Beautiful, fabulous bugs & kombis, like a Woodstock on wheels & all these 50+ year olds wandering around going I remember..
You could almost see the ghost of John Muir smiling.
Take care out there my friend.
(& you too, Sparky)
Kark wins….. Off to go ride my 29’er. OR should I say one of my 29’ers.