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The United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) mission statement is clear: “USADA is dedicated to preserving the integrity of competition, inspiring true sport, and protecting the rights of U.S. athletes.” http://www.usada.org/files/pdfs/press-kit.pdf.
Yes, USADA is funded with your tax dollars, “74% from the federal government and 26% from the USOC” in 2009. Id. But, the argument that USADA is somehow mismanaging or wasting those funds by investigating Lance Armstrong is logically incoherent. Their stated purpose is to preserve the integrity of competition. That is exactly what they are doing.
Is it the course of action opposite to that which they have undertaken which would demonstrate a waste of almighty tax dollars – if they failed to adhere to their stated purpose and ignored evidence of doping. Then, my friends, then you would have an argument.
The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency brought formal doping charges against former cyclist Lance Armstrong in an action that could cost him his seven Tour de France titles, according to a letter sent to Armstrong and several others Tuesday.
As a result of the formal charges, Armstrong has been immediately banned from competition in triathlons, a sport he took up after his retirement from cycling in 2011.
In the 15-page charging letter obtained by The Post, USADA made previously unpublicized allegations against Armstrong, alleging it collected blood samples from Armstrong in 2009 and 2010 that were “fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions.” Armstrong has never tested positive.
. . .
USADA’s letter, dated June 12, further alleges that Armstrong and five former cycling team associates — three doctors including the famous Italian physician Michele Ferrari, one trainer and team manager Johan Bruyneel— engaged in a massive doping conspiracy from 1998-2011, and that “the witnesses to the conduct described in this letter include more than ten (10) cyclists …”
The letter specifically alleges that Armstrong used EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents and that he distributed and administered drugs to others. http://www.washingtonpost.com. (All hyperlinks will be shortened hereinafter.)
First, a little background:
USADA is the quasi-government agency that oversees anti-doping in Olympic sports in the United States. It is empowered to bring charges that could lead to suspension from competition and the rescinding of awards. It does not have authority to bring criminal charges. Id.
So far, so good, right? They can suspend an athlete from competition, but they can’t throw you in jail or otherwise impose any criminal sanction against the accused.
Two points are important here. First, the evidentiary standard (or legal burden of proof) employed by USADA is lower than the standard in a criminal matter. Whether that is a good or bad thing, it should come as no surprise, depends a whole lot on one’s perspective. See http://www.utexas.edu/…dawer08.pdf, http://heinonline.org/…journals, and https://litigation-essentials.lexisnexis.com/….
The Anti-Doping Organization shall have the burden of establishing that an anti-doping rule violation has occurred. The standard of proof shall be whether the Anti-Doping Organization has established an antidoping rule violation to the comfortable satisfaction of the hearing panel bearing in mind the seriousness of the allegation which is made. This standard of proof in all cases is greater than a mere balance of probability but less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt. http://www.usada.org/files/pdfs/usoc-policies.pdf. (Page 4.)
Second, remember that federal probe that was dropped?
The federal probe had been headed by Food and Drug Administration agent Jeff Novitzky, who had previously led steroid-use inquiries that ensnared baseball’s Barry Bonds, Olympic runner Marion Jones and world-champion boxer Shane Mosley, among others.
The grand jury, which began its inquiry around May 2010, heard testimony from a number of Armstrong associates and teammates, including former teammate Yaroslav Popovych, exercise physiologist Allen Lim, Olympic medalist Tyler Hamilton and longtime liaison Stephanie McIlvain.
. . .
Despite the end of the criminal probe, the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency said in a statement that it would continue its own investigation into the use of banned substances in cycling.http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/04/….
Any of that evidence collected by Noviszky which may been found inadmissible at trail is probably going to be admissible here because the Federal Rules of Evidence do not apply. Rather, the less stringent AAA Supplementary Procedures is followed in such matters. (I’d love to provide a cite for this assertion, but I’ll be damned if I can come up with something that is worth your time reading.)
Adjudication
USADA has developed and instituted an adjudication program that is fair and credible when an athlete is found to be in violation of anti-doping rules and regulations. USADA’s adjudication process relies on an American Arbitration Association (AAA)/Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) arbitrated hearing under modified AAA Commercial Rules. http://www.usantidoping.org/adjudication.
Also, the sealed testimony from the Grand Jury may be obtained if USADA can make an adequate legal basis. “By law, such testimony usually remains sealed unless it is admitted as evidence in a case generated by the grand jury indictment.” http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jul/10/….
Whether or not USADA can make such a showing, I really have no idea. But, the point is this: it is in play, and it is damning.
I do not see this ending well for our Mr. Armstrong.
As an aside, if any or all of Armstrong’s Tour titles are stripped, who in the hell can they rightfully call the winner? The top five is a who’s who of the disgraced and implicated in professional cycling. Can anyone say Jan Ullrich won the Tour? It is a question worth answering.
Update: The relevant USADA document regarding the formal action against the accused in available in pdf form. http://www.scribd.com/doc/97022278/USADA-v-Armstrong-et-al.
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WOOOF – THE SOUND OF EVERYONE REALISING WHY BIG GEORGE JUST RETIRED!
“…evidence collected by Noviszky which may been found inadmissible at trail is probably going to be admissible here…”
thanks for that, BJ. this is a joyous day!
poor lance – he’s learning how a lifetime of sociopathy can have horrifically negative consequences.
thanks for the analysis! went straight from the washington post to here! i got my hierarchies straight. but doesn’t this take off some of the luster of big george’s retirement and his last tour?
I will crack open a nice Chimay tonight and toast Tygart and his large balls for bringing down Cancer Jesus and his Belgian Mafia….it is a glorious day.
Memo to fanboys and girls: Unlike the U.S. Attorney, USADA’s job is to protect clean sport rather than enforce specific criminal laws. The federal government was never investigating doping.
he sure did pull the wool over the eyes of all the little cancer kids.
Just give the wins to the red lantern dude, that would be perfect.
…“…dear mr tygart, ummm, travis…can i call you travis ???…
…i hope you enjoyed the giant fruit basket i recently sent you…
…the, ahhh, ‘basket lining’ you’ll note had 700,000 reasons why i’d like you to consider forgetting certain spiteful ‘allegations’ made by sadly jealous ex-teammates…
…& hey, if 100,000 reasons X 7 isn’t quite up to scratch, i can always scrounge up, like, way more reasons through a little organization i represent…i mean, i’m still like a god to somebody, at least !!!…
…anyway, mr tygart, ummm, travis, lemme know what your thinkin’ & let’s stay in touch…
…sweating it out in aspen,
with hope,
your new pal,
cancer lancer…”
This seems like a slap on the wrist to me compared to what could have happened if Novitzky was allowed to proceed BUT if the facts come out and Armstrong is exposed for the fraud he is then some good might come of it.
So if Cancer Jesus refuses to contest any of these charges, will any of the details make the light of day? Armstrong mostly battles in the court of public opinion. Will the testimony of each rider be made public?
Does USADA have a hearing or trial? Or do they just make their pronouncement and figuratively strip him of his titles?
…@ stephanie wei…you may just have nailed it…
…pretty much anybody else (& maybe including) was likely on ‘a program’ themselves…
@Stephanie Wei
Best answer I’ve heard so far to the question, “Who gets Armstrong’s Tour victories when we expose him as a cheat and a fraud?”
BJ Can you start a thread about the great white hope abandoning Le Tour
before it started?
I mean just the other day I heard Phill or Paul say the was THE “Head of State” and “training like a man possessed” and riding like a “one certain” Lance Armstrong.
@BGW great minds think alike
the only thing that would really surprise me is if Lance had truly not doped. as BJ noted a minimum of top 5 finishers also (or were) doping. why do we even really care. elite athletes are expected to continue to exceed the boundaries of believability and then we act horrified to learn that they used enhancements,supplements,what ever to fulfill those expectations. oh, the horror! the horror!
if they were all doping and Lance smoked ’em (there fore) if non doped Lance woulda smoked ’em
i am far from being a LOOPY but WTF let’s move on already!!!!!
sorry jonny, at one time i would have despised your journey to the dark side until i met , fell in love with and married a paralegal, thus dragging me down into the mire of the law and all that it (and it does matter what it means) adds to,detracts from and murkifies any given conversation with strictly linear interpretations and responses to any given comment, question or opinion.
So everyone is already calling it done?! I would assume that everyone here has the smoking gun that will pull LA from the back room and prove he is a cheat, lier, and doper?
I gotta say, I’ve been around cycling probably longer than anyone on here. I’ve been around amateur and pro racing faaar longer that 1 or 2 of you, and no, I didnt race, I WORKED FOR A LIVING!. I’ve been behind the doors, I’ve heard the stories and even witnessed a thing or two.
One way or another the witch hunt will keep going, and it will only be a matter of time before someone can prove something in the lowest common terms possible…probably something like “He is guilty of knowing HOW to dope, therefore he is guilty of doping and should be banned forever”. Ya, this makes sense, kind of like saying “ya I know what a gun is, so I must have robbed the store?” WTF.
The only thing that pisses me off more than this crap is the fact that every fat head, lazy ass sport in this country is so publicly guilty of steroid and doping, and no one cares.
Yes, cycling has doping. Yes, we have cheats. Now how about you turn the tables, go after NFL, NBA, MLB with the same energy! Why wont this happen, because every kid in the US will see what hippocrites pro player here are and wont want to grow up to be a concussion test dummy.
Let the story take its course, and when the facts are in, then jump on your bandwagon.
@Mike S.
I don’t what your point is but your tone falls into the Lance fanboy/all pro athletes cheat/the emperor has no clothes camp. The bullshit that says No One Cares is just that:Bullshit.
People who care about ethics are definitely in the minority and I’ve made this argument before here and on other forums so I’m just wasting my time continuing with this line of reason.
So why don’t you go to velosnooze or Versus where you and the other fanboys can whine together about how unfair it is poor Cancer Jesus is being held accountable for his actions.
I’ll bet everyone here on DC has already made their minds up about Armstrong’s guilt or innocence. The facts are already in and people with half a brain know that.
I’m just hoping for a final resolution to this sordid affair and some sweet, sweet Schadenfreude.
2005 – Entire podium stripped
2004 – Entire podium stripped
2003 – Entire podium stripped
2002 – Entire podium stripped
2001 – Entire podium stripped
2000 – Entire podium stripped
1999 – Armstrong, Zulle stripped.
Winner…? Escartin!
Also.
Awesome.
This is so stupid. It certainly doesn’t even come close to any conventional construct of “justice.” Now, they’re holding a top-ranked triathlete out of competition over DECADE OLD ACCUSATIONS (and not scientific empirical evidence)? Really?
Lame.
As a professional athlete, I can tell you that I want to compete against the best. I don’t do ironmans, but this handicaps the competition…doesn’t help it at all. The best athletes should be allowed to compete. And if they’re not, then the results are cheapened. Period.
Analogy time! It’s like taking away your J.D., Jonny, because someone stepped forward and accused you of cheating on your SAT a decade ago. So, while the authorities go back and investigate unusual anomalies and consider hearsay, you’re banned from practicing law. I mean, a bad SAT would have held you out of undergrad, right? And no B.A. means no admission to law school. All you’ve done, and are now doing, is on hold. Even if we can’t scientifically prove that you cheated (with our instruments of scientific proof), we’ll lean on the accusations of other cheats to shame you.
And what kind of “justice” is it to Armstrong (and his competition) if nothing comes of these accusations? He can’t go back and insert himself in a race he was was wrongfully banned from entering.
This is so stupid. USADA – Quit living in the past you crotchety old fucks. They have pills for your impotence. You don’t need to keep lynching retired athletes for your kicks. Focus on the integrity of current events. That’s why we pay you. Holding out highly ranked athletes because of accusations of past misdeeds is not protecting the integrity of current events.
As an mere undergraduate level telecommunication worker I would like to say…I love Cancer Jesus!…He’s awesome, He won 7 TDF’S, screwed Cherly Crow, and got a girl pregnant with 1 nut! He will, yet again, prevail against drug charges and then they will come up with another federal acronym in charge of investigating and he will beat that rap too!
@19
As a former pro racer myself, I feel your pain. Got a tip for ya buddy! Wanna roll with the big dogs? Is your preparation up to par? Know what I mean? nod wink
Got a hot tip from some friends in Europe. It’s all the rage in the peloton. Undetected by any and all tests. Make you stronger, faster and best of all it’s cheap! Sure, it will take a few years off your life. Who cares?
Try it you’ll like it.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jenkem
@19 or W or whatever you call yourself,
when you have to resort to an ad hominem argument style to try to “prove” your point, you might as well stay at home with the lights off.
@19 W that is what happens if you are found to cheat through any of the levels of school, usually! My girl is becoming a CPA and if there is anything that is hinkey in here past she can lose her license. I have to keep my nose clean because as a CPA if my actions affect her wealth it could harm her. So yeah he shouldn’t be able to compete in modern events if he cheated in old ones. A rapist who was just found out now should’t be able to work with women nowadays.
Does anyone else feel like the timing of this is more meant to undermine cycling as a legitimate sport in America?
I mean, if it were a legitimate sport, with real pro athletes representing the good ol’ U. S. of A. over in Euroland, there might be expectations.
Expectations, for instance, that drivers not hit cyclists. Expectations that there be real repercussions for those who do. Expectations that road maintenance occur. Expectations of -god forbid- community respect.
Instead, we have a subspecies of homo sapiens in the NFL, homo sapiens anabolicensis, and more air time on “sports” channels devoted to poker than to the pro peloton.
Nah, despite the excitement of a North American Giro d’ Italia winner, on an American team, this will be what makes all the morning news shows. Then, you will be told to go buy some deodorant, maxi pads, or gravy egg cholesterol bun. And enough people will do those things to continue this system on…and on…and on…
Saying nothing of course about the guilt or innocence of the parties involved.
I remember years ago when I told @BGW that this day would come and I caught all kinds of shit for saying it from he and a lot of you fuckers. Caught shit for talking the truth about Cancer Jesus. Caught shit for speaking out for Floyd and Tyler.
At the end of the day, cycling is better off without this fucking sociopath in the sport and i hope he and Knaggs, Stapleton, and College fucking rot for propagating the lie. LA has hurt a lot of people in the process and my only hope is that a lot of them find some kind of peace today.
Here is a tidbit for you:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/97022278/USADA-v-Armstrong-et-al
We’re not talking about rape or murder or crimes (especially since no one is pursuing any related criminal charges). We’re talking about standards of professional conduct that, at best, were laxly enforced for DECADES. So, now, for no explicable reason, the USADA is kicking up settled dust in some sort of public shaming ritual.
I have a fundamental problem with this whole ‘living in the past’ crap.
But, let’s set that aside.
If USPS team doctors and managers are the people providing testimony, then why hasn’t the USADA immediately suspended ALL CYCLISTS AND COACHES from those teams who are still competing? I’m looking right at Hincapie, for example. That’s not happening. That tells me that there’s something inherently unfair with how this accusation/investigation thing is proceeding. Get it?
They’ve singled out one individual from a mess of questionable (at best) empirical evidence, testimony from guilty (alleged) co-conspirators, fuzzy memories, and wild stories (like Landis guarding the blood bank while the varsity went out prowling for strippers in Gerona). C’mon. This is absurd.
Now I know there are a bunch of old tymers who hate Lance Armstrong because he’s Lance Armstrong and he has an ego and he’s an adulterer and god-knows-what else. And people love him for his philanthropy. And some people hate the people who love because it’s fun for irrational people to argue with one another. I’m neither a lover nor a hater.
My issue is that being an athlete myself, I find the entire accusation/investigation/suspension process unfair, opaque, and detrimental to the quality of present day competition. I put faith in scientific evidence, and Armstrong has *officially* been clean in the tests.
Aside from that, I don’t live in the past and have a hard time trying to single out individuals from an entirely dirty peloton in 1999. Let the past be what it was and move on already…especially since everyone has made up his/her mind already.
For the record, I haven’t launched an ‘ad hominem’ attack here. I’m sorry my logic felt so threatening, though.
Perhaps this whole ‘living in the past’ crap isn’t meant necessarily for public shaming, but for making an example for the present and future athletes out there.
We need to start calling this site “DrunkLawyer.com”
Funny how certain bodies are so quick to strip a cyclists title, yet so many other sport teams retain their glory, even with a tarnished athlete in their midst.
Just sayin..
I’m certainly no fanboy. For every one of his Tour victories (and many other non-Tour victories), I was rooting for the guy who ended up 2nd, 3rd, or cracked so bad he ended up 20 minutes back well off the podium (all dopers probably). But I don’t understand the joy that many of you are getting out of this. What good comes of this, particularly if he is found guilty and is stripped of everything? I’m asking that seriously – I don’t get it, but I’m will to understand. What are you going to learn, that Lance doped? I can tell you that without an investigation – yes. He’s lying when he says he didn’t. Guess what, so are many other cyclists. But you guys all know that already. So what if he loses his titles? Do you sit around looking at the record books pissed that other dopers have titles? What does any of this accomplish and are there negative consequences that we should be concerned with? One last question, if this is just about doping, how come so many on here are sympathetic to VDB but despise Lance? I enjoyed watching both race. I don’t ask these questions sarcastically. I read fanboy comments on Velonews and I want to puke, but I come here and I scratch my head wondering why people are so worked up about a guy that probably doesn’t have any impact on their lives.
@30 For the same reason we all enjoy seeing the bad guy in an action movie (or any movie, I guess) go down at the end.
I think it’s nuts that people assume that the guys who won or were on the podium were the only dopers. I never liked Lance and wasn’t even into cycling until he retired, but how did he get more guilty by winning?
I enjoy seeing someone that has profited immensely by claiming to be something that he isn’t and getting his army of PR and lawyers to descend upon anyone that was willing to speak the truth. Frankie and Betsy at least deserve that much.
W
Well, referring to USADA as “crotchety old fucks” and implying that they need “pills for their impotence” certainly sounds ad hominem from here.
I suppose it is valid to object on the grounds that it happened in the past … except this concerns an athlete who is still competitive on an interntaional level and a DS and MD’s who are actively involved in the sport. However, one can also make the case that what happened in the past in cycling has been swept under the rug for generations and doing so certainly never made this a clean sport.
You state that Armstrong has been “officially” clean in the tests. It should be apparent by now one need not test positive to be sanctioned for doping or found guilty of it (see David Millar, the 1998 Festina Team minus Christophe Bassons, etc). A clean record of negative is no longer a guarantee of clean riding, unfortunately, and there are means and evidence available to avoid testing positive.
I agree that the doping/drug code was laxly enforced for DECADES, as you state. However, is this any reason to not begin enforcing it? When should USADA or WADA begin enforcing it? It should be remembered that it is only relatively recently that there has been a systematic attempt at stopping doping in sports and it is an effort that is constantly evolving. It was only in 2004, under threat from the IOC that the UCI handed over it’s doping control to WADA. Have patience with the process, as it was often weakened or debilitated or corrupted in the past.
@30, or stock cars crash and burst in to flames.
it doesn’t seem like you can evaluate this as if it is something that has just come to attention. this is a whole mature organism that has been grown from many different foundations. so although it may seem crazy to be going after lance, metaphorically, not in any literal sense of course, it’s like deciding whether or not to have a national referendum on bringing a war criminal to trial. the once dictatorship is now a democracy, if not somewhat flawed, but basically free of the past and functioning as if their dark past didn’t happen but there is still that pustular abscess that has apparently healed but is still throbbing under and poisoning the national character. so cycling fans feel the same need to cleanse their culture.
The discourse on this site is the best I’ve seen. You people are the shit. BUT: I was assigned the task of riding with Lance during a 100 mile charity ride last year. I passionately support the charity, so I told the promoter I’d bite my tongue and be nice to Lance. Because I pretty much hated Lance at the time. Cheaters suck cock. Period. I did a lot of pro racing in the early 2000’s and lost count of the number of fuckers I raced against who got busted. Again, they are fuckers, and Lance is the King Fucker. The father of all fuckers. So this was on my mind as I rode with him for almost 5 hours, and chatted with him for a couple of those hours. But what zapped me was one 22 year old elite runner who had testicular cancer at 19. Dude was honed and fit, but he barely survived cancer. We talked for a while before I persuaded him to cruise up and chat with Lance. They talked for 15 minutes or so, then the kid rolled back to me and we continued our conversation. All I can say is that I flipped 180 at that moment. Lance has a real effect on these people. The effect overcame my hatred. I am not a fan now, but I don’t hate the fucker any more. So I see the Cancer Jesus comments, and they rankle. His inspiration to people who are or have fought cancer is real, and the LAF has mostly done good stuff. So maybe some of ya’ll should be a little more circumspect.
Lance is the spawn of Lee’fucking’Majors.
Why do all you guys wanna go mess with shit like that?
Get real jokers and haters.
Many of us who have worked in the bike industry the last decade can thank lance directly for the rise in popularity of our sport. His pr team rivals any individual athlete’s since Jordan. So any concrete conviction or damnation upon his image would be catastrophic towards his “brand” and the validity of his charities.
Anyone who knows me knows I do not like the individual, but you have to admire the empire he has built, even if it is based on a certain level of cheating. Cycling is one of the only professional sports that allows certain levels of hypocrisy within it’s doping rules. Hematocrit levels, stimulants, Jonny likes to mention that every rider in the pelaton has a prescription for asthma meds, these things when managed are all within the rules.
It’s a lot like in “animal house” …’sure we took advantage of a few of our female party guests….. But this would be an indictment on the united states of America’ (paraphrased)
Now comes the PR spin.. I never failed a drug test, so I passed all the regulations at the time of request, this based on hearsay and possible samples with compromised chain of ownership. Didn’t we just see this with rodger Clemens? And who are you to acusse me when you are a governing body of what and have no legal powers and don’t follow standard legal procedures? in legal courts I have been found not guilty, this is borderline double jeopardy and harassment with defamation of character for a counter suit.
The end of the day, lance did drugs, beat the pelaton who where all on drugs and beat the tests to determine the drugs he was on. That is all I need to know, so the IOC and whoever else can go waste thier time busting chinese gymnasts and divers at the olympics and leave my cycling alone! We all have DC to expose us to the real side of the sport we love.
Oh bye the way, I think Ulrich should get 3 of those tour titles and I want my $ back from Nick A. for those bets I lost all those years at DC!!
Word to the motha fuck’n Vlade.
Vlade, I have known you a long time, and that might had been some of the smartest words to ever come out of your mouth.
yawn…..this AGAIN?? majority of the comments on my local rag were NO -ONE CARES and NO-ONE CARES ABOUT CYCLING.
yeah we all know he did it. but he worked the system and got away with it, get over it. why, why, why the endless witch hunt?
hope my tax dollars are putting the same scrutiny on the NFL. this just hurts our graceful sport.
boring sidney, boring!
ya Vlade, you tell ’em….err…us!
…@ humpty…i don’t mind you bringing up the past ‘cuz originally, it was quite true…
…i speak only for myself & you’re 100% correct…at that time, i certainly did give you an earful of shit as i was fool enough to buy into cancer jesus, hook, line & stinker but then again when the word came out from too many team riders who were actually involved in the process, not just support folks but guys i realized had nothing more to lose, i not only recanted, i took the time to personally address you here with an apology…
…i’ve tried to be straight up with no excuses…when i’m wrong, i’m wrong…if i bullshit myself, i don’t learn a fucking thing & ultimately, any discourse on the above subject is about the health of this sport, something i personally care about…
…your turn…
…cap’n tony…guess we both realized right at ‘the drop’ that a little fun here might ease the upcoming tension, ya ???…& that tension is here…
…anyway…
…when any discussion comes up as regards cancer lancer & ‘legalities’, it seems there are commentators who come out of the woodwork to parrot his attorney’s ‘sound bites’ in such a disingenuous manor that i’m led to believe they’re part of a protective little lance-network that trolls cycling websites after the collating software reveals ‘name’ activity …
…
How about the cyclists that train hard dont dope and dont deserve to ride against cyclists that do !!!!!!!!
Just another opinion from the unwashed rabble; but I think the bigger picture here is how the UCI will be implicated in all of this. (And how they will attempt to deflect culpability).
I happen to think that Fat Pat’s filthy, porcine-like hands are all over this fucking mess.
Don’t even get me started on that fucking scumbag Bruyneel… I sure hope this is the end for THAT asshole.
(Again, just my opinion. Flame on!)
OR…it might be the last piece in the white-washing process of LA. If cleared, that will put the final, indisputable rubber stamp on LA’s career…for the history books.
B4 any of you dipshits direct any comments at me, you should know I think he did it.
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Can’t wait to hear how Phil and Paul spin this one next month!
Sweet baby Jeebus, USADA might just be able to do the unthinkable here – turn Lance into a sympathetic figure.
@W you know there is one American stance that my girl pointed out I’m over looking. “Innocent until proven guilty!” That right there is where I’m falling short, in my argument. He has never been convicted or found guilty of cheating in anyway. So let him race, if he is ever found guilty then, lets strip him of his titles and not let him race. Doesn’t matter what we all think/know until someone can find him guilty. Which people will try until the day he dies.
Shut up and ride.
Jonny, I’m glad we got our own attorney to walk us through all this legal mambo jambo. At the same time, I’m saddened that we need one. But good looking out, and thanks.
@BGW It is all good, it was not just you and it takes a man to admit he was duped. I was duped by the man hard core to my face, and that is why I hate him so much. I was out marketing and volunteering for the foundation, getting him to sign books for friends with cancer and it was ALL Bullshit. His doping caused his cancer and he did it AGAIN out of greed and spite. Doubt me? look at his victory salute at ’93 worlds and tell me that ain’t ‘Roid face!
You guys want heroes? there are many that beat cancer worse than him that you can look up to that don’t lie. Just go visit your local Cancer Ward.
For those that say “don’t waste my tax dollars”. Think about all the TAX FREE trips Lance takes on Mellow Johnny Air LLC on charitable dollars that he pays ABSOLUTELY NO TAX on…to raise “AWARENESS”. I think we are all aware of cancer. Where is the fucking RESEARCH for a cure?
For those that say move on,it was 10 or 12 years ago here is an interesting perspective from my boy Tilly:
http://stevetilford.com/?p=20021
For those that believe Lance is not a narcissist and a do gooder?
Here is another from Neil Browne:
http://neilbrowne.com/2012/06/the-different-realities-to-the-armstrong-doping-charges/
For those that believe he has genetic talent,and never failed a test; Read this:
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden
For those that say he is being picked on and the other dopers got away scott free…. Please remember that he was INVITED by USADA to testify to CLEAN UP THE SPORT and ONLY he refused out of the 10 that were asked to testify.
Make no mistake. Lance is and will go down as one of the biggest frauds in Sporting History. As he should. You want to cheat, then when you get caught you deserve the punishment. But when you cheat and play false hero to the people in the cancer community using a lie then that takes to another level.
…trying to make yourself look relevant ???…you’re the guy who always sez you don’t give a good goddamn about anything to do with racing ‘cuz you’re just gonna go out & ride your fixed gear…
bgw, go fuck yourself. And while you’re at it, go troll someplace else.
I’m sick of your shit, and anyone else who looks in here from time to time is too, if they’re honest with themselves. Seriously, if you can’t do better than the shit you’ve been spewing, we’re all better off without you. And I wish it were not so. Seriously and for real, at one time I’d have been proud to call you “friend”.
Ohyeah, bgw? Ever had a loved one to go through cancer? If not, STFU. If so, it probably serves you right.
…“…blah, blah, blah…” joe…
Blah blah blah your own fucking self, cocksucker. Do the world a favor and eat a fucking Glock.
…“…ohhh, ouch…”, joe…but again, i believe the correct response to your little tirade is “…blah, blah, blah…”…
Quite a few folks here need to go a few rounds with the Beast before stamping their little hooves and bleating their invective at “Cancer Jesus.” It’s possible to love the sport, hate what it’s become, and still retain a sense of perspective.
Joetheelectrician, I am gonna say what I think a lot of people are thinking.
Your routine is tired, annoying and getting old. I haven’t read a thought inducing post from you in forever.
Now go get on your fixed gear bicycle and ride off into the sunset.
You suck.
@62 I assume by the beast you mean cancer. I never call myself a cancer survivor but I am. Tends to run in my family. My mother died an ugly death from lung cancer and never once said that she wished she could meet Lance Armstrong to be inspired by his cancer raising awareness.
If I met “Cancer Jesus” tomorrow I’d tell that sorry piece of shit to his face that surviving a nasty disease no matter how dramatic is no free pass to act with impunity.
Here’s my cancer story. I got on a bus and went to the hospital. They cut the tumor out. I got back on the bus and went home. I survived. End of story.
I’m really sick of the cancer angle that all the survivors keep bringing up which shields Armstrong from the consequences of his actions. Find some inspiration elsewhere people.
Or just get back on the fucking bus. It worked for me.
If this is all old news, nobody cares, etc. etc…..Why does everyone take the time to comment?
People obviously have strong feelings about this, so just letting it all slide as part of a ‘dark period’ for cycling.
My favorite response is the “just ride your bike” non-sequitur.
Corned beef is delicious. I’ve been brining it at home for the last couple months and it’s been a delight. I make a nice Reuben sammy when I get back from rides, wash it down with Imperial IPA from the Maritime Pacific Brewery and thank my lucky stars I get so much joy outta these simple things in my life.
Though it’s beyond me why, I love to watch bike racing too. Still…
That’s nice.
@64 +1
Good on you mate.
Corned beef is cool, I do mine with a table spoon of brown sugar, slice & then cover in a horse radish, (home grown) & mustard sauce.
My late mother used to do it as salty as possible & then served it with mashed potatoes & white rice, mixed.
When I was old enough to query why we needed this double carbo bomb, she fixed me with a steely gaze & said, “because I like it”
No more questions mom.
Vlade for the win
Ahhhhhh. There’s no argument like a Lance Argument: “My cancer expericene is realer than your cancer experience.”
Chimay should never be used to celebrate another’s demise, however deservedly. There are rules, man.
Prefer the brisket smoked not corned. I’m down with the IPA.
If this crap keeps up they’ll eventually take cycling off TV.
…cap’n tony…“…surviving a nasty disease no matter how dramatic is no free pass to act with impunity…”…nice catch…& therein lies the crux…
…until recently, cancer jesus has been able to sell his shit to the non-cycling ‘survivor’ crowd all day, every day ‘cuz they only get fed the livestrong line…
…it’s different in the world of cycling, where it’s a given that the guy has been a dick for years albeit a dick with the ability to turn on the charm when needed…sound bite, photo op ???…comin’ right up…
…the guy is a product, a brand name, so yes, he has inspired people…
…& as a product, he was built to succeed & yup, he won 7 tours de france BUT as cap’n tony points out, that doesn’t give he or anyone else the right to act with impunity like it’s a god-given right…
…btw, cap’n…glad you made that 2nd bus…
Iketaylor,
Kindly disagree. I cracked that Chimay and watched the Nightline and other Lance media stories with a shit eating grin on my face.
I raised my Chimay glass to Mike Anderson. Emma O’Reilly. Paul Kimmage. Betsy Andreau. Greg Lemond. People that have faced the wrath of Lance and his PR machine many times and were caused a lot of pain. I even toasted Tyler and Floyd. Even after I lost money to the Floyd Fairness Fund. Without Floyd the process of tearing it down and rebuilding anew would have never started. I look at that $ I lost as an investment into cleaning up the sport for future riders so they don’t have to be pressured into doping, like my son. I hope all of these people have found some peace through this.
I would be lying if I said I just drank it just for them. I have been watching and wating for this time to come since 2003. That Chimay was one of THE best beers I have ever had….and I’ll crack another when all the Tour titles are stripped away.
In a way, this is the best possible outcome. His kids will not have to watch their dad go to jail( and all the baggage that comes with it ) but he will still have to wake up every day and know that the whole world knows that his whole life is one big fucking lie. That is worse than jail for Lance.
Only one thing funnier than hearing the phrase “Floyd Fairness Fund”…that is hearing someone admit they gave money to it…a fool and his money?
@ Cap’n Tony – you are a piece of work. DO you put on your “big boy” jersey and sit in front of the TV, screaming like some neanderthal NFL fan, berating all about how you “know” what its like to be a pro cycylist. Another armchair quarterback that ‘thinks” he’s better than he really is.
I am not a LA fanboy. I am a fan of the sport, and all that try and push themselves to be the best that they can in whatever they do. When you bitch and moan, and try to beat others down because they dont conform to your point of view, you just expose yourself for what you are, a wanna be. Another pothetic excuse for a sports fan.
Tell you what, go back to your lazy boy, crank up the NBA, NFL, MLB or whatever it is that you watch, and shut the f**K up!
Your useless and tired ranting only shows how pathetic you really are.
Leave the guy alone… Anyone can find 5 people to say what they want, given enough money. Where is the proof. Bottom line is he never tested positive. Period. You can’t take away his titles, five plus years after the fact, based on questionable witness testimonies.
Guest. True belief requires action son. I donated b/c I have known Floyd since he raced MTB in juniors. He was a different kid then, before he met Lance. There is a term for guys like you in the army…. “REMF”. REAR ESCHELON MOTHER FUCKER. You’re the guy that sits in the rear with the gear while others do the real fighting and then after your “tour” you tell all your friends that you were in the “shit”. You are a true man. Yep, I admit i contributed to FFF and I admit I once believed Lance too. But at least I take a side.
Now go ride your Livestrong Madone, maybe you have taken some action….
Okay Mike S. you’re on to me. You’ve seen through my charade. Yes, I’m a 350 lb fat slob who watches fox news and any “Pro” sports on the tube. I ripped my big boy jersey ’cause I’m too fat and ditto for the lazy boy.
Next time you come over to the crib, bring me a new recliner preferably with heat and massage, and a case of Chimay since we’re on that subject. And one big fat slab of memphis style pork ribs, dry rubbed of course, go easy on the sauce.
And don’t forget to wear that little French Maid outfit I bought you. And the brunette wig. You look good as a brunette.
@Mike
Better a “neanderthal” NFL/NBA/MLB fan in a Lazy Boy than a fucking Euro soccer fan beating the fuck out of opposing teams’ fans in the streets.
Fuck Lance! He’s a douchebag for inventing cancer.
Thanks for another laugh…you said it again.
You and the other sheep, soft white girly sheep, just waiting to be fleeced by Floyd and Lance were the biggest tinfoil hat wearing stooges ever. The “Great Conspiracy” of people organized to get Floyd and Lance never existing. They are cheaters who got caught and you gave them money.
REMF?…you may call me sir.
@dc dirtbag, AAAAAAhahahahaha. It’s about time we got the root of it. Well said.
How dare they go after the man who cured cancer and allow a foreign national Muslim in the white house? Antiamericanism is at it again.
Although I still give cancer jesus mad props for dropping a $100 Gr into planned parenthood.
almost want to give him a pass just because for that one.
W so we shouldn’t try the past or past actions? Uh really ok I know, lets try suspects in the FUTURE. Lets go all minority report and shit.
Yep, REMF. You probably read the CliFF Notes of a book then tell everyone how you read it too. Sorry about the LIVESTRONG MADONE comment, you sound more like a FIXIE guy.
…wow, guest…i’ve read certain postings of yours that were quite logical but your recent ‘harping’ has you blindly pissing all over your own validity…
…temper it, amigo, if only for your own sake, ya ???…
…@ mike s…don’t stand next to a box of rocks when you’re with your girlfriend…you’ll be giving her a choice…
Shit just got a whole lot worse for Lancey Pants. Italian investigators have uncovered a $465,000 payment he made to Dr. Ferrari. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-reportedly-made-dollar-465000-payment-to-ferrari-in-2006
By the way, Happy Bloomsday Bitches! Guinness, Jameson and kick ass novels for everyone!
I’ll be honest, I had to google Madone and FIXIE…my bike is getting near old enough to be graduating from high school…but it is quality.
Sorry I wasn’t fooled at first followed by having an epiphany that yes indeed people lie and cheat. I don’t see how anyone who believed can look back and not feel foolish…holy vanishing twin…so lash out if you must, if it will somehow make you feel better.
Holy shit! That $465k payment looks REALLY bad! It will be interesting to see how LA responds to that news.
I can see it now a tense meeting with Armstrong and his cadre of lawyers has been called at Lance’s secret bunker in Austin
Lance: Whattamygonna do now? This makes me look bad especially after all my denials that I worked with Ferrari
Lawyer #1: We can say that it was for “training advice”
Lance: Done that
Lawyer #2: How about a nutrition program?
Lance: I pay you assholes millions and this is what you come up with? Give me something to hide behind!
Lawyer #3: hair replacement treatment for Levi.
Lance: No
Lawyer #4: hair replacement treatment for Levi AND Chris Horner
Lance: NO NO NO!!!! Leave bottle and that asskisser Horner out of this. This is all about me. ME ME ME!!!!!!
Lance’s phone rings “Hello. Hog! help me. I’m fucked, Hog I’m fucked….yeah…. yeah…ok…gotcha… you’re the best Johan, thanks
bye say hello to Michele for me”
Lance closes phone “okay all you assholes, you’re fired. get the fuck out you’re useless. Johan has it all figured out. The money was a payment for a European subsidiary of Livestrong. It’s called Fartstrong. It’ll also explain how I was able to win all those Tours. Methane and jet propulsion. That also explains the high cadence. It blew all the stink away lest my rivals figure out my secret plan. Fuck it, lets all fly to Aspen for dinner and drinks. I hear Travis Tygart is gonna be there. Can’t wait to see the look on that bastard’s face!”
Waitaminnitt-Dude had to google “fixie”? I have lost faith in all of humankind.
…ummm…can i get in on that hair replacement treatment ???…
Juan Pelota’s treatment may give you a full head of hair. The only catch is ya gotta sell your soul to the devil.
I got more hair that I’ll ever use. Surely something can be worked out…
…hell, cap’n tony…a full head of hair & $465,000 to ‘buy a ferrari’ just for selling my soul to the devil ???…sign me up…
…i’ve been tryin’ to do it the honest & straight way all my life but @ 63 maybe it’s time to visit the dark side…
…just (metaphorically) sayin’…
Guest, you lashed out first with your condescending exalted bullshit.
So here you are on a cycling website full of fans of cycling and bike racing and racers and are the only fan of bikes and bike racing never to be duped by a lying and cheating racer? how hypocritical is that? or do you even have any favorite racers or like bike racing? or are you too afraid to take a side on that too?
maybe the only reason you are here is you keep hoping for Big Johnny to bring the porn back so you don’t have to play hide the weenie at your local YMCA
Difference here is me giving money to people and causes after being lied to your face. Does that make one a sheep or them good liars?
You will learn through the USADA trial of Lance that the testing was not corrupt and that the only reason Floyd got caught is that LA and his cronies tipped off the UCI who tipped off LNDD.
Let me guess, you were the only one to know that too…. probably were on the fucking Grassy Knoll when Kennedy was shot on your fucking 18 yr old bike…. Fucking REMF.
I see you want to re-define the term ‘lashed out’ to support this tirade…making a joke, even a bad one doesn’t qualify as lashing out.
“Does that make one a sheep or them good liars?”…If you were a fan of cycling as opposed to a johnny come lately Lance and Floyd supporter, you would know the answer to this.
“You will learn through the USADA trial of Lance…”. Tinfoil, absurdity…
You sure do make a lot of assumptions about me. All I can say is that with each one you reinforce the fact that your judgement is still just as faulty as the day you donated to the Floyd Fairness Fund.
…straight up, guest…you just qualified yourself for ‘little dick’ status…
…refer to kenny rogers…“…know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em…”…
@98, you’re right on level with Holden, attacking because your hero’s turn out to be cheaters who will have in the end only hurt racing and cycling in general.
#100 Bingo! What do I win?
guest, don’t take it personal. bgw has more fucking issues than TV Guide. He comes here to work ’em oot, eh, because therapy is-well, you know…
@guest, there is only room for one joetheelectrician. Joe, keep up your crabby ass antics and hopefully you’ll fall into a ditch you dug all day.
guest: We are not aware of anybody making false allegations against anyone under oath in the history of Doping or anything else for that matter. If you are aware of such precedence please post proof and link here
…so joethefuckingclown is now giving advice to people in order to take a few digs at me…that would be hilarious if it wasn’t so fucking sad…
…looking for an ally, joe ???…
Guest, assumptions on your part as well. Lance was more of a dick pre Cancer Jesus status then he is now. LAF was b/c of my father’s first bout with cancer. I was invited to attend the FFF dinner by a mutual friend. Facts are that if anything pointed out in the ppt presentation is true then there is a big issue with the whole testing protocol i.e. reasonable doubt. This was before the blood passport. Floyd gambled on the carbon isotope test and it showed he had synthetic Test in his system. Turns out they did not catch all the other shit in his system and the LNDD was tipped off when to test him. EPIC FAIL. Either way, I am glad that it is all getting torn down for future riders like my kid.
It is easy to play REMF when you do not know the parties involved. I am sure if you are a fan of cycling it would be almost impossible to have a favorite in the last 20-30 years that was not juiced to the gills. But you are right, a lot of assumptions by me and I don’t know you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
FIRE SALE ! Mellow Johnny’s T shirts 70% off! 10% off for each Tour Title that will be stripped!! You like apples @juanpelota ?
@105, that is almost a conversation, only one or two jabs and just one instance of name calling.
“Lance was more of a dick pre Cancer Jesus status then he is now.”…not my issue, if that means something to you or other, so be it.
This however:
“ppt presentation is true then there is a big issue with the whole testing protocol i.e. reasonable doubt.”
You seem to be claiming to have knowledge based on information in a ppt slide deck presented by fraudsters and charlatans. This again help explain poor judgement. They were liars and cheats, you didn’t gain knowledge, you were indoctrinated. Sorry, no easy or gentle way to say that. They made you a victim and like a good victim you stand here today and try to defend what happened.
Also, gambled == cheated…end of story.
“… impossible to have a favorite in the last 20-30 years that was not juiced to the gills.”
Sorry, tinfoil and absurdity designed to make you feel better. It was harder in the last 12-15 years for sure, but not impossible.
Here’s something! WE AGREE:
“Either way, I am glad that it is all getting torn down for future riders like my kid.”
@107 Guest, I am glad you are for cleaning up the sport for the future. Most of us on this site are.
I was reading your posts and was wondering if you could let us know the name of the meds you take that allow you to maintain such a high degree of judgemental self rightousness while simultaneously projecting self loathing. Casting condescending judgement on the thoughts and feelings of others such as “absurd” ,”tinfoil”, and “victim” must make you feel real good about yourself. It must also hide a lot of insecurity. Based on what you write, you must be a passive – agressive bundle of joy to be around.
Out of my own curiosity, you say it was easy to sniff Floyd and LA out, anyone who did not was a “victim” yet fail to mention these pro cyclists from the last 12-15 years that you are a fan of and you know have never doped? So who are they, or do you just use a magic 8 ball on who to believe and when?
….last word
Humpty,
Getting people to donate money by lying to them is a scam and/or a fraud and most likely a crime, hence if you donated to FFF you are a victim of a scam, fraud and/or a crime. Get it?
Absurd and tinfoil referring to lumping all cyclists for 30 years as cheaters is my opinion and I feel quite accurate. I believe the big money systematic doping programs are a more recent phenomena. We’re not talking speed and weed anymore.
To your last paragraph, none of your business, it was never the subject. I will say I have no need to pick a favorite every year and at the height of the bullshit I didn’t even watch the Tour for several seasons.
Well I been trying to stay outta this spandex-clad pissing match, but I just got this to say about that:
I just went for a cold, wet, muddy mountain bike ride (still madly in love with the new hardtail 29er) and I didn’t dope.
Wait, define “dope.” Oh never mind. safety first, brothers and sisters.
Guest,
You seem to have changed your tone from mocking someone for admitting they donated to FFF to now coming off like you understand they were lied to. so maybe you acknowledge it was judgmental at best. baby steps..
Thanks for the lesson on doping but big $ systematic doping programs started in the early 90’s, easily 20 years ago. one could even argue they started in the 80″s as far back as the ’84 Olympics. Thanks Eddie B
I don’t feel he lumped ALL cyclists in as dopers, if you weren’t so quick to judge and read; just the favorites. Again context. I don’t know a lot of fans that have pictures of their favorite Shacklee domestique from the early 90’s on their walls…. maybe they did not dope, but only you would know as you seem to have a gift for discerning a performance, any performance, from the last 30 years as dope free or not. Maybe those powers extend to the years you chose not to watch, I am sure b/c only you knew that all the cycling champs were on dope during the height of the sport in the US, you stood alone in defiance of unethical sport.
Based on what i have read I am sure you feel quite accurate on anything and everything you say. Easy to do when you never put anything out there that isn’t safe and as long as you feel that you control the conversation and/or it’s direction. Not sure what you are afraid of since all your posts are anonymous so it is okay to be a little vulnerable mmm-kay. We won’t judge….maybe disagree but not judge.
Humpty, you got played…
From your rants it seems like at some point you got some schooling on the subject, I’m not gonna split hairs with you on how many years it went on for. PED’s prior to the 90’s were nowhere near as effective as they became in the 90’s. They weren’t nearly worth the same investment and budgets were nowhere near the same. It became a team system.
My tone has changed from being repeatedly attacked. I didn’t realize you were so emotionally attached to the subject.
…last word as well.
…gee willikers, guest…gianni’s been busy what with law school, family matters & the occasional bike ride, gnomers working out some personal shit, you’re not into anything deetoo has to say, pl’ what’s her name is gone, so i’m sure as fuck glad you’re here with the new ‘guest manifesto’ ‘cuz frankly, babe, drunkcyclist could have lost direction without your erudition & input…
…i think most of us will gladly acquiesce to your deep & unequivocal knowledge of the sport especially considering all of us had the wool pulled over our eyes by those nasty dopers yet & obviously you were much too savvy…
…that makes you right & us wrong…certainly an excellent qualifier when we go to this ‘faceplant’ thingy you recommend…
…anyway, peace n’ love, hugs n’ kisses & a BIG positive thanks !!!…yer just fucking awesome !!!…
I reckon that it’s LJ returning from exile!
MAAAAAAATE !!
HOW THE FUCK ARE YA ?
How’s that pothole crusade going?
I love DC cause all the great vibes I feel when I read all the posts of new adventures. Great rides in amazing places with interesting people. Or silly rides on goofy bikes in our shitty little town(with great beer…lots!, and great friends). There is no doubt most of us share a common view of the human experience. I feel we live MUCH richer lives.(fukya we do) I am however, confounded and disappointed by the amount of hate being spewed here. Who gives a fuck about Lance Armstrong! (loved that Carlin clip) Please direct your passion elsewhere. Darfur, Tibet, or child molesters perhaps? It’s not funny. It’s not interesting. It’s a bit of a downer. No? Anyone?
I am a fan of LA. Watched him crush it on L’Alpe. Riding off-road when Beloki ate shit. Many great moments I don’t have to recount for you seasoned folk. I loved Tyler too. Riding the tour with a broken collarbone and winning a stage.(get the fuk otta here!) Floyd laying it down like I’ve never seen before, or since, on stage (17)?(most dramatic 3or4 hrs. of racing I ever seen) Then they get busted and it was LA’s fault. They’re gonna save cycling by telling how, they’re stronger will’d team leader pressured them into doping. Reminds me when Bassons(I think) told the press I’m the only one in the peleton who is clean. Or something to that affect. I thought it was funny and ballsy. Then, he was astonished that no one in the peleton wanted to ride with him. It was nieve, selfish, and affected no change.
For the last 10 yrs. My friend from down the block comes to my house and says “did ya here about Lance? He’s in big shit this time? Every time! I just say “no he’s not!” and let him explain to me how they’re gonna get him.
Never Happens!
Never Will!
What’s the best case scenario?
What did the Clemans ordeal accomplish?
Your not teaching the kids anything cause they don’t know shit about some 40yr old fossils and couldn’t give a shit.
You guys better go ride your bikes and report back with some funny, crazy, silly, drunken adventures. Or else!
Guest,
you are all over the place, just when I thought you would stick to something. If you are going to be condescending and judgmental, better stick to your guns up in here.
I find it ironic that you make judgmental comments and then in ultimate hypocrisy talk about being attacked after your “tinfoil” comments…ones that you make and then try to soften after you make them.
you played yourself….
@111 – Safety first, Mikey. Safety first.