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He bugged me the other day about how quiet I’ve been, so Here I am. Back with a clarification and a rant-ish post.
After the election many places I visit on the Intertubes™ were full of ‘haters’ at the fact Obama won. For whatever reason people couldn’t be happy with someone who is intelligent, capable of speaking clearly and before being sworn in, had the respect of much of the world’s population.
That wasn’t nearly enough for some; others are just batshit-fucking-crazy with the muslim-terrorist-non-american-socialist-bla-de-blah-blah bullshit. Well, fuck you and the horse you picked. You lost, he won and everyone wants to make sure they have a job for the next few months and that they don’t go bankrupt. Which brings me to the meme of the month. Healthcare.
From a post at Democratic Underground :
Every other nation in the industrialised world manages some form of universal healthcare. It takes many different forms, with varying methods of delivery and paying for it. Since you’re coming to this relatively late, there’s nothing to stop the US setting up a committee to examine the existing systems and then mix-and-matching the best parts, absorbing Medicare and Medicaid along the way, until you come up with something special and uniquely American. The USA is the richest nation in the world. California alone is the fifth biggest economy on earth and yet, you are the only industrialised nation which doesn’t guarentee at least basic healthcare for all of it’s citizens. Guys, Italy manages this without it turning into a socialistic nightmare. Are you seriously telling me that US politicians are markedly worse than those of Italy? In most of the civilised world, only a very few unfortunates (mainly homeless people or drug abusers) die for lack of care. That’s a tragedy, no questions there but how many people in the US die because they can’t afford care?
That’s my emphasis in there. Fucking ITALY. Where they have garbage strikes practically every year. Fucking EVERYBODY got on the boat after WWII and decided to point a shitload of resources into keeping their people stong and healthy. We chose ‘free market’. Saint Ronnie (that idiotic fuckwit) said this about Medicare/Medicaid back in 1961. Now, the shit Bill Mahr sticks on the end of it is pretty funny, but the point is, NONE OF THOSE THINGS CAME TO PASS.
deep breaths… deep breaths… goosfrabaaa…goosefrabaa…
Ok, so we all know it’s a load of shit and now we have these Blue Dogs and Conservadems caving to the whole Rethugs like a battered spouse. Fer fucks’ sake people. STOP IT. You are in the majority, act like it. Step up and shove the best legislation down their throats, and watch them squeal like bitches about bipartisanship. Where the fuck was theirs less for the last 12 years? Fuck playing nice. Fuck bipartisanship. Pass legislation that works.
Where does the funding come from? Well fuck… since we spend 50% of the ENTIRE PLANETS spending on defense… maybe MAYBE we could cut that F22 (which we did) for a nice 122 billion and start there? Who the fuck are we going to fight with that? Al Quaeda? Those fuckers who live in fucking dirt huts? Using 20 year old Kalashnikovs? Ammo left over from the Soviet occupation and the Iran-Iraq war? If we cant roll in there and kick these hut-dwellers with what we had 20 years ago, how the fuck are we going to stop them with more money? F22’s cost what 45million a piece? And a handful of box-cutters from Home Depot…? But again… I digress.
The other reason I have been gone is life, work, addiction… all those things that make life a rich, full novel, not a boring 1 page homework essay assignment. Whatever. I’m going to click on some Orange Goblin and get back to leveling the mightiest dwarf in all of Azeroth. Laters.
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Obama is lackluster and there’s no reason not to question him. You conveniently forgot about the 23.7 trillion dollars that has been given away to bankers and how that money has not been used to save the economy. These bankers are the same guys that are real good buddies with folks like ol’ Ronnie, HW, Clinton, W, and don’t forget Obama. Damn it’s good to be a gangsta for them but it sucks for us regular folks.
I think we desperately need to improve our health care system so that hospitals are less like a business and more like a hospital. The first thing we need to do is stop giving trillions away to banker fags. Why are you afraid of them? If you don’t think we need to tell the Federal Reserve to fuck off first and foremost then you’re missing the point entirely and we will never have good health care or fairness of an kind ever. In fact every year we leave the Federal Reserve in charge of our money will be another year the USA is fucked.
The Federal Reserve is owned by the same guys that have financed every war on both sides for the last several thousand years. We’ve barely escaped the Plains of Giza, but they followed us because we work for them and let them take advantage of us. Wake up, wake up, wake the fuck up! We can’t all have cake if most of it is sent away to people who already have a K2 sized cake. If we want our cake we have to save it for ourselves. Don’t forget.
An F22 raptor is nothing. . . the Rockefellers alone could/should give a fleet of them to us for what they have taken. If we had any balls we would be taking these people’s excess billions of dollars and use it to build this nation up to the point of excellence it could be. Instead we give them trillions for loosing trillions in an effort to fake us all out that they weren’t selling us all out and moving their factories to other countries.
Fuck you for thinking it is as simple as a left/right issue. That is one of the weapons used against us and until you realize that we’re so fucked. Check out Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul, then contact your Reps. and tell them to sign on with these two. They’ve had it with the Federal Reserve and you’ll probably feel the same if you look into the situation. The Federal Reserve is ripping us the fuck off and it’s about time to put an end to it.
Damn shame Ron Paul is laughed off in the national media as some kind of whackjob. I just read “Foreign Policy of Freedom” and the guy makes HELLA-sense on a LOT of key issues.
Where is Ross Perot?? Or Ralph Nader?? Call your congressman and they won’t do shit. Our only hope is that the Dem’s grow a set of balls and do what is right NOW! Time is wasting and all these Chodes in Washnington want to do is procrastinate and hope they don’t make things worse instead of getting something going and refining it as we go along.
OK Shultzie…
If you want to have a discussion abot the Fed and how recently Greenspan admitted everything he held dear was completely wrng, fine.
You wanna post about how Obama is lackluster and some libertarian fucktard from Texas who wants to abolish the IRS would be better, fuckin great.
But DONT come here and reply with batshit nonsense to a fucking post about HEALTHCARE if you have NOTHING TO ADD TO THE DISCUSSION.
Jesus fucking christ.
The fed is fucked. Sure, The bailout was poorly executed, no question. (Oversight anyone????) But fuck me for wanting to have some even slightly educated response about the topic at hand.
Schultz = epic fucking fail.
The one thing that annoys me about all this ‘socialism’ talk is that the opponents of socialism, like Ronnie Raygun, want to scare you away from it with threats of communism. Socialism doesn’t mean that someone tells you what your job is, or that no matter what job you have you’ll earn the same pay as everyone else. Socialism means that everyone buys in, that everyone owns everything by contributing their share. You put in, you take out. Socialism is everywhere in this country, and has been for a long time.
Again, some of that 23.7 would have gone a long way to helping universal health care. you are totally weak minded, get it together. is your daddy a banker or what the fuck is your problem? why don’t you add something profound or are you only interested in personally attacking me? you have added nothing but crying like a baby. your such a loyalist. now i suppose you will have to flame me some more, and where’s that other Stockholm victim?
Despite all the brainwashing and dumbing down, people are starting to wake up more and more. I can’t claim to know the truth about 9/11 but I don’t buy into what we’re told to believe about it. I certainly can’t imagine why anyone would argue in defense of what we’ve been told. There’s no logistic explanation as to why there weren’t fighter aircraft to meet those out of control airliners. “Oh, we were in the middle of drills. Nothing interrupts our drills, that is a rule and we must follow orders.” That’s not to mention the explosives that were found in the dust, which has led many credible people to believe the towers were demolished under the guise of a terrorist attack.
http://www.google.com/search?q=thermite+dust+towers
During W if I mentioned this stuff some thought me a left wing nut, and now I’m a right-wing batshit conservative. Fuck you and have a nice day. You know that batshit is good anyway, it is used to grow the wicked kind. Yeah baby. Fuckit.
Congress was threatened with martial law on the public, and followed the martial law procedure:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385×205488
Don’t buy into the military-industrial complex, end the banker bailout and use that $$$ to fund health care and a bunch of other more useful stuff.
Jesus… I make a post about health care and the debate going on. You keep bringing up 9-11 and tinfoil shit and nothing. Seriously… Not one thing you have posted has anything to do with the debate about the US finally attaining health care for its citizens like the rest of the western world.
Seriously… post something about health care or go away. No, really. That or beg Jonny to let you become a poster and start your own rant about how 9-11 was conceived by the elite ruling class and how it was instrumental in making citizens give up fundamental rights instead of questioning what had happened and why. Throw in a bit about the PATRIOT ACT and maybe even a bit about Vince Foster or Wellstone.
Honestly… stay on track or stay away.
Does anyone else have something productive to say or is this it?
“In fact every year we leave the Federal Reserve in charge of our money will be another year the USA is fucked.”
“I can’t claim to know the truth about 9/11 but I don’t buy into what we’re told to believe about it.”
Schulz— wow,not one, but TWO conspiracies in play! Bummer that both target you, huh?
Mikey
PS— the “free market” does not serve.
you say reduce military spending and i say reduce banker bailouts. the cash from both can be used better for health care, that was my point and it relates to the topic. there certainly is no conspiracy about the federal reserve, its fraudulence is right out in the open and the massive amounts of wealth they take could more than fix universal health care budget concerns.
I have healthcare… great health care… You can’t guarantee me that my healthcare will be reduced so that other people can get insurace.
And it is about insurce because everyone has health care. When I was in college I seperated my shoulder in a bike crash. I had no insureance and manage to get it taken care off. That involved xrays, surgery and 2 pins. I got taken care of through the existing system? How did that happen?
Costs WILL go up… health care WILL be ration. You can not deny that.
“Those who will give up freedom for security deserve neither.”
Asking me to give up my freedom for someone elses security is suposed to be against what some people on this board believe.
” [The Federal Reserve’s] fraudulence is right out in the open and the massive amounts of wealth they take could more than fix universal health care”
Schulz— uh, where exactly are they taking “massive amounts of wealth”?
“Costs WILL go up… health care WILL be ration. You can not deny that.”
kg— of course I can deny that— there are a dozen western nations with universal health care that costs LESS than what we get in the US. Jesus, don’t be an idiot.
You are so right Schultzen hymen….Obama blew up the twin towers so he could take the White House and put his Stalinistic Health Care plan into action…all by himself. He also is behind all the Crop Circles…
Jesus fucking Christ. Bikepunk is right, we are the fucking biggest underachievers on healthcare ever. But are you fucking serious with the conspiracy theories? put the bong down and tighten up your shit man. Maybe try putting a “no acid on a school night” rule in place.
“You are so right Schultzen hymen….Obama blew up the twin towers so he could take the White House and put his Stalinistic Health Care plan into action…all by himself.”
Now wait a minute, HUMPTY, you can’t prove that Hillary wasn’t involved. :)
What, Dems grow balls? Bwhahahahaha. That’s rich.
KG, your health care is already rationed. There is a bean counter between you and your doctor, and your insurance can easily be pulled if you get too sick. It happens. You don’t get to just walk in for surgery, you have to wait for approval from the insurance company (is the doctor or hospital in the insurance group…), which can take weeks-months. If you have a pre-existing condition, your insurer will not cover you. Just because you haven’t been on the losing end of the rationing yet, don’t kid yourself into thinking that it can’t happen. Talk to someone who has gotten cancer, and see how quickly they hit the maximum coverage amount. A majority of bankruptcies in this country are medical bill related. We are the only western nation who doesn’t have universal coverage. Our businesses and economy are suffering because of it. Instead of listening to the talking points from someone who’s been lobbied by the insurance industry, talk to people who have actually lived in Canada.
The same people crying about how private insurers won’t be able to compete with a public plan, are the same ones who think the private sector does a better job at everything. Make up your fucking minds. You don’t get it both ways.
We already have two socialized medicine programs in this country: Medicare/Medicaid and the VA. They aren’t perfect, but for the most part they work for people’s basic health care needs.
One of the major failings of FDR was that he didn’t get universal health care instituted as part of the New Deal. We wouldn’t be having this discussion.
It is fucking offensive that the Repugs and Blue Dogs would rather see a political victory than actually do something to help the country. Fucking traitors.
I’ve never heard someone from England or Canada complain about their healthcare system by saying they want a system more like the one we have here in the USA. I’m sure they are out there, but I’ve never heard them. I’m sure they’re also looked at as nut jobs in their own countries.
My best friend’s mother in law just died two weeks ago. She had high blood pressure, and couldn’t afford medication to control it, so instead of the state (taxpayers) paying for medicine to control her hypertension, we paid for her to be in a hospital for over a week, a nursing home for five + months, and back in the hospital for three more days. The difference is she is now dead.
Oh, and for all the “conservatives” out there, which option costs more, five + months of intensive care, rehab and the like, or decades of medication to control her hypertension?
Lesson: Our healthcare system is broke.
What ever happened to our country being founded on the principles of Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness?
Our country now goes by Money, Greed, and I’m Gonna Get Mine.
Where’s Dave?
Dang,
They got us goin’ in circles still.It’s true,every civilized nation on Earth has some kind of universal health care,even Mexico,and theirs is pretty good too.Now I ain’t no hater o’ the new guy in D.C. but it would be wise to remember he’s a Chicago politician.In my fifty years all I’ve really noticed in difference between the donkeys an’ the elephants is in their rhetoric. As for the Department of Defence,those guys get more than anyone could be trusted with.We can get as excited as we want but that won’t change a thing.I use my passport all the time,me,my piley ol’ fixie an’ campin’ gear,and in many places you get the feeling that they really care for their fellow citizens.All too often it doesn’t feel that way here…If we want a better country we need to be better people.All of us,to everyone,even those we disagree with.Acourse I’m kinda dumb,I killed my T.V. If you ask real nice,I’ll kill yours too…Meanwhile,I just got a deal on a new pair o’ Interwolfs,gotta ride!
Pistil
We will pay one way or another. Healthcare providers and companies want to make money. People don’t take care of themselves.
Thermite? That doesn’t even make sense. 9-11 conspiracies are so wild…
It was actually thermate. If explosive experts don’t believe the NIST explanation, why should anyone? If NIST is allowed to speculate in telling us what happened, why isn’t anyone else? I wouldn’t put it past W. . . Paul Bremer’s company was on the floors of tower one *exactly* where the plane hit. There’s no other reasonable explanation for the falls of molten iron (molten aluminum does not glow bright orange in the daylight).
Of course, if you’re a Stockholm victim there’s not much I can do. I can tell you that these men are doing this and show you the evidence but you will never believe me. You have been scared into submission.
This is relative to the topic at hand because universal health care will need funding and if we keep giving all our cash to people like Bremer and Bush there’s not going to be much left to properly take care of folks.
If the Federal Reserve is as American as Jack Kerouac apple pie and ice cream, why aren’t we allowed to know what they’re doing with our trillions?
“Paul Bremer’s company was on the floors of tower one *exactly* where the plane hit.”
Schulz— I know what you mean. I was having a drink with Elvis and we were talking about how childhood vaccinations cause autism and he explained how a tightly-run cabal of Swiss Jewish bankers suppress magnetized fuel injectors which allow cars to run on water and get 100 mpg. Fascinating stuff, really.
Bremer is Swedish
and now he has a highly profitable business in the homeland security business
Opportunistic? Certainly.
Evil for profiting from a horrible event? Certainly.
Part of the Illuminati controlling the world’s finances? Bzzt. Wrong.
It is pointless to argue with conspiracy theorists, because their “truth” feels so right to them. The will ignore all reasonable facts and use innuendo to make links where there are none. Sure the plane hit “exactly” where Bremer’s business was. So? Like they had that much control of the planes? I means nothing, but it FEELS like it must be an important part of the story.
C/Ters are just like a religious fanatic. Facts become irrelevant with that much faith.
You are so invested in things like the accuracy of the 9/11 commission and the goodness of Obama that you can’t let yourself believe in anything else.
Dietrologia is the belief that there’s more to anything than what appears.
You believe the confessions of torture victims because Rumsfeld told you it was a good way to get information from people. Fuck you and your poached ivory tower. In my opinion people hate this country because of motherfuckers like you who never question this stuff.
It is not a conspiracy that the primary impact point of both planes were floors that had nothing but IT equipment. It is not a conspiracy that “bulldozed” office equipment does not create the kind of fire to melt metal and collapse buildings at that rate. It is not a conspiracy that the towers were meant to get hit by a plane like that. Then why did they fall? That’s not to mention building 7. Hello? Fuck you and your 9/11 commmision.
The reason the economy is fucked and the reason the universal health care plan is probably going to suck is people like you, who just go along with whatever they’re told. Fuck you el falacyface, Mr. fricken Stockholm syndrom.
Italian health care? My daughter crashed a bike when she lived in Italy, at the hospital their only responsibility was to keep her from dying – not fix the damage to her leg or even see to it that she could ever walk again. While staying in the hospital your family or friends are expected to supply frivolous personal items like toilet paper and meals, that’s not the hospital’s job. We had to fly her back to the US for *real* medical care.
Trust me, Italy’s system is nothing to emulate.
An old girlfriend used to work in a medical park in upstate New York – *all* of their patients were Canadian citizens who drove down to pay for US care rather than be subjected to *free* (i.e. what they already payed for) care in Canada.
Oh, and guys? nothing at all had to melt for the towers to collapse. Go to the library, find a steel construction handbook (for gods sake don’t just google it and blindly believe whatever you find on the internet), and find the graph that shows how the yield strength of A10 structural steel falls off to less than half well within the temperature of burning jet-A fuel – still way under the melting point. That’s why the steelwork is typically coated with a thick layer of spray-on insulation – unfortunately that insulation doesn’t work so hot after it’s been physically destroyed by the impact.
Not that we shouldn’t always be questioning – we aren’t told *most* of what goes on in this country and the world. It’s just that for people who actually design with steel, this one is pretty much a non-starter.
schulzy,
Ohh, I’m scared. A Truther who didn’t even read what I wrote just insulted me. I’d better run away now…. Yes those are all bits of your precious conspiracy theory. They FEEL like they must mean something. I mean you read them on teh intertubes, they must be true. You have some serious fact issues and you know nothing about what I question. Take you paranoid little mind and fuck off. You are just another Truther who would rather believe in a convoluted fantasy, rather than the simple truths about who is responsible and evil in this world. The thing is I don’t need your roundabout circular logic to figure it out, and its the same people you think are evil. For far more simple reasons. Parsimony. Look it up. Twat.
I just want to know where all the Canuckistanis will go to get healed up proper when Barack Kevorkian Obama shitcans our present system, such as it is.
Scott, the fire may have not had to melt the metal to weaken it, but that doesn’t explain all the molten iron that was found in the pit. Not to mention if the structure was only weakened at the impact zone then just that part of the building would have failed, correct? Why are we expected to believe these three buildings would all fail so perfectly and completely.
NIST denies the molten iron existed in the pit even though it was mentioned again and again by firefighters, cleanup and reporters. So they don’t have to explain what they don’t want you to know. That little bit of orange flow coming out the window was a small fraction of what was found in the pit, still 1000+ degrees F weeks after 9/11.
This is not a convoluted fantasy, ass holes. These are facts that NIST did not or would not explain. . . it has been proven that burning office equipment does not mix with molten aluminum and that molten aluminum does not glow orange even at 1000F. Most if not all the jet fuel was atomized and burned off immediately upon impact.
el pseudosmart says: “You have some serious fact issues and you know nothing about what I question.” I could say the same about you especially when you claim I don’t want wealth to be distributed when that’s all I’ve been writing about. You attack me because in order to support Obama, who will not prosecute anyone for war crimes, you now have to support W. Obama is now responsible for the continued jailing for life of untried and unaccused men, the torture victims held at gitmo and other secret jails. Therefore, Obama is now a war criminal.
What the fucking shit is wrong with financial responsibility, ass hole? People hate this country because we give all our money on hand and steal from future generations to fund our war machine and pay bankers monumental amounts of interest. This leads to situations like the one in Bolivia where the IMF was saying the natives there have no right to any water in the country. These World Banks are owned and operated in large part by US interests which gives people even more reason to hate us.
I’m confident that more people on the planet, after learning all the facts, would side with truthers. Even if some of it is speculative, the NIST report is full of speculation and conjecture and wraps it all up with more than too much convenience for anyone to be found guilty.
Actually the only guilt was that America was too free. It was our fault for trying to run a free for all country.
“Dietrologia is the belief that there’s more to anything than what appears.”
Schulz— Occams razor states that when all else is equal, the simplest explanation is the best. It sounds to me like you have a clinical neurosis. Oh, and Elvis says, “hi.”
“Not to mention if the structure was only weakened at the impact zone then just that part of the building would have failed, correct?”
Incorrect. The shock loads generated by the impact of the upper floors are way more than enough to exceed the design limits of the undamaged structure below. You are quite literally “dropping a building” on it. The towers used a central core of vertical columns to support the horizontal platform structure of each floor – with the floors providing lateral support against buckling of the vertical columns. All you need to do is hit one floor with enough force to break the bolts and welds holding that one floor – dropping a building on it ought to do the job – and it breaks free to drop on the next, repeating the process all the way down; and as the central column’s lateral supports get wiped away, the columns buckle and fall as well.
I’ve got to admit I hadn’t heard about any “molten iron” in the pit, but there is a lot of tons of non-structural lower-melting-point metal in a building like this – wiring, plumbing, ductwork and blowers, door and window frames, molding and other hardware; much of which is capable of glowing orange in a molten state – and there probably wasn’t a qualified metals expert among the rescue and cleanup crew to trust their assessment that it was iron or any other particular metal.
Also, why would you assume that most or all of the fuel atomized and burned off immediately? That’s not what typically happens in an aircraft crash – some burning crash sites take a half day or more to put out. Why would this one be different?
Besides, you can’t melt steel. Rosie O’Donut said so.
Schulzy,
You are the one who started calling people assholes and claiming we universally suffer from Stockholm Syndrome if we don’t buy into your Truther BS. Go back and read the fucking thread. You came in off topic, and started insulting people. No one said anything about what your political leanings were, although you started off claiming it. A couple of us called bullshit on the Truther nonsense. The focus on that crap actually reduces the likelihood that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld will ever be held accountable for it. Put down the bong and grow the fuck up. I’m going back to ignoring you…
Oh, your response in this thread proves my original point: Truthers are just like religious fanatics.
Why not add some facts? I happen to have a poster-size Iron-Carbon/Cementite phase diagram on my office wall, dating to my metallography days in the mid-90s.
Austenitic steel starts to glow orange at about 727 degrees C.
It is common knowledge that steel becomes liquid (melts) at 1148 degrees C (~2100 degrees F).
For you nascent steel founders, Cementite (Fe3C) is insoluble above 1252 degrees C.
I reckon these temperatures are achievable is a sufficiently hellish jet fuel/building material conflagration. Schcultzy, can you set aside the “IT equipment” and “Swedish Jew Banker” talking points for a moment and demonstrate otherwise?
Helpfully yours,
Mikey
The thing that set me off was the oversimplification of left/right. I should not have gotten so upset and for that I apologize. These people are colluding and to simply boil it down to democrat v. republican is a terrible mistake. One is not better than the other and together they are totally fucking ripping this country to shreds.
If you watch the buildings go down you’ll see they’re free falling. This does not happen naturally. In a scenario where floor after floor is breaking under the rest you will, with absolutely no uncertainty, have one hell of a big mess on your hands that would make what actually happened look like the intentional clean cut demolition it was. The buckling you mentioned would be much more random and would not allow the towers to fall into themselves. The still uncompromised steel below would have wanted to hold the buildings up despite the upper floors failing. Without having their legs taken out from under it them the buildings would have fallen in highly unpredictable ways.
The buildings were designed to take a hit from an airliner of very similar size 707 v. 767. Maybe they screwed up in their engineering, but that doesn’t explain the perfect fall.
I believe that the ~500 MPH impact of the plane and the way aluminum shreds and tears would have left little fuel sitting in pools to burn. This wasn’t one of those trying to bring her down without killing everyone crashes where I believe a lot of the fuel is left sitting there after the plane skids to a stop.
“The focus on that crap actually reduces the likelihood that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld will ever be held accountable for it.”
Welcome all to el jefe’s Name That Fallacy!
Occams razor helps me. To say that the towers imploded and fell freely to the ground as they did is where you start to grasp for straws in explaining the event. Occams razor will not help in analyzing things like political events or the stock market, however. When human emotion is interjected things become much more complicating and definitely do not follow the simplest path.
I don’t know Mikey, but when I think of the old days when men used to work steel before the advent of electricity and modern blast furnaces, the blacksmith shop requiring a lot of oxygen to be pumped into the specially built fire in order for them to be able to even just soften it up. To end up with pools of molten metal and big blocks of volcanic like conglomerates, I believe you need some very special circumstances and not just some random act of terror.
By “it” I mean the failure to prevent the attack, the profiteering from the attack, and the using of the attack to start two wars, end run our civil liberties, and bankrupt our nation.
a debunker wants the nice NIST answer and not the easy brutal one.
“I don’t know Mikey, but when I think of the old days when men used to work steel before the advent of electricity and modern blast furnaces, the blacksmith shop requiring a lot of oxygen to be pumped into the specially built fire in order for them to be able to even just soften it up.”
schulz— they didn’t have bottled oxygen in “the old days.” Perhaps you mean “air.” There was plenty of air available to a burning building.
The Japanese made steel swords, and are rightfully famous for it, some 400 years ago. When I was in the metallography biz, our lab had the honor of analyzing the tang end of a priceless samurai sword, a Japanese national treasure. The grain structure of the steel was jaw-dropping, just spine-tingling.
But they didn’t haphazardly push some shit (a good part of which constitutes material that will not burn) into a corner throw a big splash of kerosene in and start burning it, and then in an hour or so have tons of molten pools of iron. A forge and bellows is required to concentrate the heat just to get the metal malleable. Now how is it that the twin tower fires were hot enough to get all that iron to pool? This you have not even come close to describing in your low temp black smoke fire.
“Now how is it that the twin tower fires were hot enough to get all that iron to pool? This you have not even come close to describing in your low temp black smoke fire.”
schulz— did you miss the part about tens of thousands of gallons of jet fuel in a massive explosion?
Jesus dude, you DO sound like a religionist on this topic. This borders willful ignorance, and prostelytizing a deliberately false message is some of the worst human behavior out there. Please do be careful, sir.
you missed the part about the building being designed with a plane hitting it in mind. you missed the thousands of gallons of fuel that burned off immediately in a fireball bigger than most buildings. you missed the explosions that were happening in and around the area. you missed the part about bloomberg sending the metal off to be recycled immediately because “who can learn anything by looking at a piece of metal.” you missed the countless other government coverups.
you are without question promoting a false and empty message, mikeypants. it is people like you who let the criminals go free.
“you missed the countless other government coverups.
you are without question promoting a false and empty message, mikeypants. it is people like you who let the criminals go free.”
schulz— Yeah, the Federal Government sure is good at that stuff… I heard they faked the moon landings too. Maybe the Vietnam war too, although speaking from experience, it seemed pretty real at the time.
You know what I let go free? My bike. I bagged a 20-miler today, got a 50-miler on tap for tomorrow and a mere 30 miles on wednesday. 100 miles in three days, hopefully I can do it again going into the weekend. Enjoy the ride, sir.
I’m talking about the well documented undeniable coverups involving 9/11. Army intel was going to move on the suspects, but since they were given visas despite INS objections they couldn’t, and FBI knew all about it too, but they were prevented from taking measures against the terror cells.
And don’t even get me started on building 7. You, el jefe, and bikepunk don’t even try to debunk my arguments, you’re only denying them for your own self interest using nothing short of absolute fallacies.
Now this is in the realm of conspiracy, but I believe the banker bailout is a way for the rich to get theirs before all these new extremely costly laws are put into effect. Obama told the bankers to start lending money to small businesses a few months ago after the first 13 trillion, did that happen? I don’t think so. What the fuck are they doing with our money? The new little LBS here in town could have used even just a few thousand this spring, but there was nothing despite the fact that bikes are selling like mad and despite Obama’s order to the bankers.
“you’re only denying them for your own self interest using nothing short of absolute fallacies.”
schulz— whatever dude, I’m an atheist. Enjoy your conspiracies all you want, but as I said before, please be careful about propagating willful ignorance. That’s reprehensible behavior. You might want to review the guidelines for critical thinking, they usually make conspiracy theorists squirm.
“I’m an atheist,” therefore what? How does that apply to whether or not the government had more to do with 9/11 than get caught with their pants down. You sound like the one who needs to study critical thinking.
How does tracking down the money to pay for universal healthcare have anyfuckingthing to do with you being an atheist?
What you’re promulgating is that people should not bring up the past and facts that were suppressed by an obviously corrupt government. I know, those buildings fell through the path of greatest resistance because you’re an atheist.
…gotta agree w/ shultzy on some a’ this…while there are logical explanations for certain aspects of what happened that day & while those aspects might have been initially lost in the fervor, there are a shit ton of cover-ups & inexplicable goings-on that leave nothing but suspicion in a thinking mind but yet do not fall into the realm of “conspiracies”…
…it would be nice (read: informative, valuable) being as too many “explanations” never added up, to not be denied the truth but it doesn’t behoove those who made the decisions to reveal them to us as i’m sure we’d be outraged…that’s how it goes…we’re simply being denied the truth…
…& while atheism has nothing to do w/ moral right n’ wrong, c’mon there, mikey…“Enjoy your conspiracies all you want… … …please be careful about propagating willful ignorance. That’s reprehensible behavior.”…really ???…i’d suggest that blindly accepting a limited percentage of information is “propagating willful ignorance” in it’s own right…
…& while i certainly don’t think standing on a soapbox, screaming yer anguish at the world is ever gonna bring one any closer to the truth of that day, passing off everything as a conspiracy theory is simply illogical & willfully ignorant to my way of thinking, especially when there are so many information gaps…
…are you honestly satisfied w/ all the answers about 9/11 ???…jeez, dude, has complacency really set in ???…my attitude is to just keep it on the lowdown until something new is brought to light but at this point i gotta put it aside until such time…
…’member the kennedy assassination…the “information”, the truth was always there but everything was a “theory” until facts started coming out, years later…
…to propagate a great lie, one must start w/ a premise of great truth…then you alter facts & manipulate beliefs & perceptions…(ie:- yes, there are extremists in the muslim world who do think in terms of “hate” when it comes to christian beliefs & western morals…it’s a fact but a limited fact…most muslims, christians, budhhists, atheists & agnostics simply wanna create a decent life but there are always gonna be extremists…go from there…)…
…the truth is always there but in cases like this it always isn’t allowed come to light…
…just sayin’…
…sorry…my last line should read “the truth is always there but in cases like this it isn’t always allowed to come to light”…
““I’m an atheist,” therefore what? How does that apply to whether or not the government had more to do with 9/11”
schulz— You have Faith [sic], I do not. I will not buy your conspiracy theory. Rather, I will stick to the obvious, simplest and universally accepted explanation: airplane strikes destroyed the World Trade Center.
“…really ???…i’d suggest that blindly accepting a limited percentage of information is “propagating willful ignorance” in it’s own right…”
bgw— No. The preponderance of evidence massively supports the obvious and universally accepted fact that airplane strikes destroyed the World Trade Center. Conspiracy Theorists come in at least a couple of different stripes. It is possible that Mr. schultzenheimer genuinely believes in the conspiracy theory he expounds, and it’s also possible he’s motivated by political or business interests. It’s likely he doesn’t appreciate the difference. His raving rhetoric makes it a little hard to tell, quite possibly by design. To vehemently proclaim bizarre alternative explanations with some hidden (political or business) agenda is to willfully promote falsehood and ignorance. I think we can generally agree that that is reprehensible.
Too bad I don’t know more of you personally because you would know just how off Mikey is. To be atheist is to–according to Mikey the evangelistic atheist–excuse millions of dead and trillions of dollars stolen? Not the simplest, but certainly the laziest and most cowardly explanation.
I suppose to you it is a conspiracy that W’s brother Marvin Bush ran a company in charge of the security for the elevator renovation at the WTC just before 9/11? Funny how that would have given them ideal access at free will to plant as much explosives as they needed to crush the core of the towers.
I’m sure Mikey loves that Popular Mechanics debunker “article”, which to me is so obviously fucking whitewashed. “Oh, you can’t trust anything that was said in the days after 9/11, it was just such a confusing time for all of us.” What a fucking cop-out.
And again, its degraded into a rambling incoherent pissing contest completely unrelated to health care.
this is why the US is fucked. an entire generation unable to focus on one thing without getting distracted and having topics hijacked (lol… hijacked…) by trolls with nothing better to do than espouse their crooked, illogical and unrelated crap.
welcome to idiocracy.
You initiated the discussion on funding and 9/11, read your own post. . . you implied box cutters were all that it took to start the war on terror. Fucking talk about illogical. Write a good article which will lead to good discussion. Look at what the fucking shit you wrote, it’s barely coherent at best.
This can’t be true can it?
It’s politics. What the fuck does “true” have to do with it?