Welcome to 1952.

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I almost hurled when I read this article posted last week on Velo News.

Amgen Tour of California organizer AEG appears set to launch a women’s elite time trial to accompany the men’s event in Solvang in May. According to several sources, invitations for the SRAM-backed event went out a week ago, and the purse will be paid based on the number of men the women beat.

Why not just make the women race in bikini’s too? Oh wait, the sponsor’s logo’s wouldn’t fit so well on a two piece.

I don’t get it. I mean, seriously? Boys against girls? Girls can do anything boys can do! Are we in 5th grade gym class? I’m not saying these women can’t beat the men, but what the fuck does that have to do with the payout? I hope this was just an idea some asshole thought of and I am glad Velo News found out about it and posted it. I also hope AEG ToC gets enough shit that they won’t actually go through with this nonsense. Unless they pay them a sick amount of money for each man they beat. I kinna doubt that though.

I don’t understand why the women can’t have their own race and why they can’t just give them a decent payout. They manage to do a great job in some of the Cyclocross races – UCI3, USGP – why can’t they get their fucking shit together for road racing?

I asked my friend Low Brow to weigh in on the subject this time around. She is super smart and had some intelligent opinions I wanted to include in this post. Low Brow is also working on a documentary about this very subject and has done some research.

“To have your performance rewarded (and in turn VALUED) in terms of how it “measures up to “ male performance as the “standard of achievement” sends a very specific message: whether you trained just as hard, spent as many hours, and have dedicated yourself as much, you are devalued unless you meet the male standard criteria…

Obviously, in a sport such as cycling, the goal is, more or less, to cross the finish line first.  And yes, male physiology gives us the general predictable outcome of males having faster speeds, more power (although one sports physiology researcher I recently interviewed went on to discuss the ability of women to outperform in ultra distance endurance events due to ability to metabolize fat differently, but I have not been able to verify the research myself yet). And indeed, a woman of equal approximate level in the profession beating male cyclists is quite and accomplishment. However, my assertion is that to make a direct value judgment based solely on comparison to male performance as the STANDARD or GOAL of the event, and to PAY ONLY based on this value determination creates a statement that has permeated our culture layers deep: Females are thus judged as being only as good as the male traits and behaviors they can emulate or “live up to” or in this case, top. In essence our work is only equated as valuable as much as it can be measured by the male norm standard. This particular race blatantly demonstrates this in direct value of the payouts. You only get paid if you measure up to our males.”

These women are more bad ass than you.

04_03_11_flanders_243_600Tour of Flanders pictures from CyclingNews.com

After coming across this post on PodiumInsight, I was stoked. Lyne Lamoureux has done her homework and knows which races she will be supporting. This is hella good news:

The SRAM Tour of the Gila is offering up more money to the women ($19,000) than then men ($18,400) while the Tour of Toona is making it equal, $55,000.00 purse for the women, and the same amount for the men.

Then there’s this lame crap.

The CapCrit p/b WCSA in Washington DC on October 2 which lists on its website a purse of $15,000 for the men and $250 for the women.

Some race promoters get it, and other’s just think it’s 1952. I say it’s high time these women and their managers take a good long look at the races that support women with equal payouts and fuck the rest. Easier said than done, I know, because…..

This is a Man’s World – James Brown

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About Judi

Bicycles are my salvation. They are my way of life. If you don't like it, then you can go straight to hell. Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

67 Replies to “Welcome to 1952.”

  1. i hear ya.

    back when i did shit, i used to race expert & semipro DH on a team w/ 3 bad-ass women. routinely, there weren’t enough women to fill a class, and the entire women’s field would be like 8 people.

    every weekend my female team-mates would walk away with serious swag – frames, wheels, park stands, snowboards, etc. in my packed class, i was lucky if i could win tube-n-lube, sox or maybe a jersey for a top 5 finish.

    i don’t mean to belittle your point, i agree 100%. i guess i just think racing-commerce / athletic exploitation is a crazy topsy-turvy world.

  2. Judi- This came out on April 2- has this actually been confirmed as truth or was this particular editor pulling an April Fool’s Joke one day late?

  3. @indy – true… but on the average, from the numbers I’ve been looking at, womens’ 1-3 place payouts are around 10% of the 1-3 place male payout within the same race. 3-4k for a first place male finish, and a couple hundred bucks for the first place female finish. Granted, there are plenty of people who will say, “well there weren’t enough women registered for said race to put the money towards their payouts, promoters would lose money” and then we all get to participate in the chicken vs. the egg argument that rallyed a few months ago on this site… But like Judi said, a lot of promoters seem to be getting it right. And they are not going broke.

    I’m proud to live in Cincinnati, where UCI3 Crossfest was a leader in womens’ payouts this past year, using the formula presented by Georgia Gould for determining womens’ payouts: http://www.cxmagazine.com/big-money-cincinnati-uci-cyclocross-festival-10k-womens-purse-2010

    @Bikescag – We can only hope…

  4. Look people, whether or not you think this one is a joke (why would they do it a day late or attach sponsor reputation to it? dumb.) the fact remains that many, MANY races treat women’s racing as the equivalent to the under 12 juniors field. It’s a totally relevant convo, with or without the complete insult at Solvang– which if it is a joke hits just a little too close to home.

  5. Well Judi,
    Glen Beck, Newt Gingrich, the teabaggers (not the tea party movement – these are two different entities), and the right wing christian fundamentalists want the US to go back the the America of the 1950s when everything was perfect. No civil rights legislation, no anti-discrimination laws……Yup, just the good old days when mom was supposed to stay home and raise the children, and dad was allowed to come home and smack her around after a 6 pack of beer because the meatloaf came out too dry. good times…..good times……..

  6. This is why I don’t race. (And, generally, dislike anything dude-guy dominated.)

    Give a dude-guy a chance to wag his dick in front of a bunch of dudes and the dick wagging contest will ensue. The men taking podiums in these races need to realize the disparity and make a public show of equaling the prize money themselves. Unfortunately, racing attracts a disproportionate amount of dude-guys.

    Maybe some on-track protests for equal payouts are in order?

  7. Yeah, I mean WNBA players’ salaries are the same as their NBA counterparts. Right? Right?

  8. Judi has a point, but come on, it’s a RACE. The fastest guys win the prize.

    If you want “equality,” then women should be paid the same as men— by their finishing time. Gender is not an issue. As soon as you create separate purses for men and women, you CREATE a gender issue.

  9. John @ 11, yea man your point is spot on, but in the cycling world – and I am probably wrong – the discrepancy is huge between pro men and women support. I believe – and I’m probably wrong – this is the issue here.

    The thing about it that I find peculiar, is that this is not a new argument. The industry has made significant attempts to cater to women over the past decade. Seemingly to no avail. Part of that might be substantiated in the difference in mindset between men and women, each having different interests and motivations, generally. But that has got to be a slight issue from my vantage. There are tons of women out on bikes, and it would be a delight to see the system revised so that support of such a “radical” idea as to have more ladies on bikes be fostered to a ridiculous extent.

    I will gladly be chicked by the ladies any day of the week. I think this is the issue…being chicked by the ladies as much as possible.

  10. my goals here are to:

    1) call out the idiots w/ idiotic ideas on purse payouts for women.
    2) praise the promoters who *are* paying equal amounts.
    3) get more women to make some noise.
    4) get more women to race.
    5) get more women on bikes.

    i don’t care if you think its stupid.
    i don’t care if you think it’s a waste of time.

    my job here is to make some fucking noise, and i will not STFU.

  11. If there are equal payouts, but there are less women in a race as compared to the men’s race on the day, how is that equal?

  12. I think the point of equality in this case is based on fairness. Yeah, the females are getting a chance at racing and winning money, but it’s all a big spectacle. There’s no fairness in requiring females to beat their male counterparts in order to get prize money. To be fair, they’re not being made to do anything – ultimately it’s up to them or at worst, their managers to agree to do this, but it’s still insulting. “Oh look how cute, she thinks she can beat Cancelarra in a TT!” That’s like picking a random dude at an MMA gym and putting him up against GSP and calling it fair.

  13. @Rhys – well said. Lyne at Podium Insight made a similar observation, regarding how this addresses female cyclists as a “novelty”.

  14. Hey I got my ass whooped by a couple of gals at the annual Harris-Roubaix (Harrisonburg, VA) just yesterday. Fair n’ square. Took it like a man, I suppose.

  15. last year Marianne Vos took on ex-pro and Tour stage-winner, Maarten Ducrot, in an Alpine climbing challenge…say what you like about how ‘fair’ this particular challenge is, Marianne could probably bury us all.

    this spring, in one week, she won a gold at the World Championship on the track and then to 3rd place in women’s Ronde van Vlanderen. baller.


  16. To be fair, though, it hasn’t yet been confirmed as far as I can tell that this payout method is actually happening. The article I saw said the tip was from an un-named source and that the promotors haven’t confirmed yet.

  17. “honey, bring me a cup of folgers…i’m reading this article about ‘you girls’ racing on bikes, (chuckle) like anyone cares…holy cow, can you imagine ???…it sez here they even wanna get paid…how do they get these ideas in their pretty little heads ???…

    …”guys get paid to do ‘guy stuff’ ‘cuz, well, we’re guys & that’s the way it is…girls are supposed ta cook n’ sew n’ take care of their men when we do athletic stuff like watching a ball game on tv…

    …”thanks, dear, you made this coffee how i like it, right ???…good, good, now get that big butt back into the kitchen where it belongs & make me a sammich & don’t put fucking mustard on this time, goddammit !!!…that’s a good girl & if i see anything in this article you should know about. i’ll tell you, okay ???”

  18. Well, that is indeed fucked up. But you know what’s NOT fucked up? The Whiskey MTB race, being thrown down by Sadcow himself in Prescott, AZ. Yep. Pretty kewl stuff that guys does. Equality you want? Well, then equal pay- outs for Men and Women. $10,000 per class. Whole lotta moola right there folks. Grab your bike and your family and come on out. More info here: http://epicrides.com/wor/wor.htm

    Just sayin…

  19. So in order to be equal, men and women must have equal opportunities AND equal results ?

    I don’t think so. That mentality does not compute.

    This is a case of business v. personal.

    At a bike race, who brings in the money ?

  20. It’s a time trial. The clock don’t give a rat’s ass about gender. If that ain’t “fair”, then what the fuck is?

  21. The same pay discrepancy issues are currently under fire in the porn industry as we speak. Women are paid $1500.00 for a DP (double-penetration) or anal scene while her male counterpart(s) are paid maybe $100.00-$200.00 for the same scene. This is outrageous! Ron Jeremy has taken Judi’s role in making headway to bring this social inequality to the forefront. The Hedgehog points out that a woman can make over $100k in the industry while men are lucky to make $40k-$60k.

  22. I agree with Joe in his simple statement. I think that anyone regardless of gender should be allowed to enter a race based upon the same criteria of selection, i.e. having a license or racing your category.

    However, the world of professional sport is about money first and competitive spirit/fairness/etc.. all the good stuff second. You can’t rationally argue for the same purse when the simple reality is that the most elite, fastest, toughest cyclists are men. If you’re in denial of this simple reality then you’re just not getting it. It’s not a MALE DOMINATED SPORT in the USA for traditional reasons, as it is in the European scene. It is because of a fledgling attempt for a few people to reproduce something and make it pay out like it does in Europe. (that means that elite racing in the US is a special interest. It might be your and my special interest, but it STILL IS THAT)
    The reality is that the whole town doesn’t turn out for the tour through, bicyclists don’t get the respect here that they do in Europe, and this gender inequity thing is not going to change until all the elite women become more elite than the elite men, which is biologically impossible and only likely if men stop riding and women keep riding.
    In the world of competition, none of these other merits that you speak of: training ‘just as hard’ for example, mean jack shit. Winning matters, and that’s all. I’m not saying I agree with that philosophy, I’m just stating the obvious: ranting against this is not going to change it. There are a lot of other areas in life where inequality hurts people a lot more than in bicycle racing.

  23. I have to weigh in (uh, again) to agree with a point Mr. Littlejar #27 makes: Pro sports— especially in America— are not about “sport” or “fairness.” They are about money. Hell, look at the Olympics— that supposedly “amateur” and they don’t even pretend to care about “sport” any more. It’s about TV broadcast revenues, period.

    Which gets us back to admiring the local CAT3s. They are putting their time, effort and pain into racing and simply not getting paid. And those CAT3 ladies could kick my ass easily, which I think is pretty hott. Keep the rubber side down.

  24. why not just have the women compete in the mens race, if equality is what we are looking for then have at it.

  25. The problem of measuring equality is deciding on how to actually measure it. Do you pay equal money between the fields? Do you pay equal depth between fields based on the depth of the respective fields? Pay equal regardless of the depth of field? How about the number of finishers? There is a question of competition to be addressed, and I for one am not sure how it can be answered. It seems to often be either feast for famine in women’s cycle racing – either five girls show up and just finishing gets you prize money/trophy/podium/upgrade points, or twenty girls show up and the winner gets 10% of what the men’s winner got.

    I second the Todd Sadcow Sadow @ Epic rides mention. That guy is definitely pushing the ball forward.


  26. @redheads for dave – i was thinking about something similar today. take the cyclepassions calendar – you think that men could sell something as hot? not. sorry, it just wouldn’t sell as well. hell, i am not a lesbian but i’d rather see hot naked women over hot naked men anyday of the week. lesbian sex too. women in the sex industry will always make more money than the men. always.

    and the sex industry is not considered a fucking sport – that’s a whole ‘nuther post. but thanks for bringing it to our attention.

  27. A friend of mine from years back, Cindy Lacotta, was one of the fastest women in Tucson. She and a few friends formed a team, called Desert Foxes. Roadies to the core, and everything. When she was Cat 3 she told me this: “It is easy to get endurance for long rides. It is getting SPEED that is difficult.”

    I have a theory about why, in cyclocross, women can do really well, comparable to road racing as Judi mentioned. The reason why this is, is because of the strategy difference, and probably because toughness and bike handling skill are such strengths in cyclocross, and women can develop toughness and skill as much as a man can. Women have fought in wars for centuries. Road racing needs these things too, but only at such a finessed and conditioned level… it’s hard to quantify. I think genetics and male oxygen volume difference mean a lot – clearly it’s the reason why I don’t cut it as a road racer, myself.

    After the Tour of Tucson Mountains in ’99 I invited and incredibly beautiful, knockout kind of babe named Barbara, from Idaho, to join us on a club ride. She was a category one and riding a hand made Bianchi ti. (I really felt pretty great when she showed up and asked for me) her road skills were impressive and during a surge on the way back to Swan and Sunrise, she was off the front with two of the men and everyone else was dropped, including me. This was after 60 miles.

  28. Triple F and LJ bring up an interesting point – financial value as attributed based solely on strict physical ability and measurable (and comparable)athletic performance, regardless of gender.

    My initial thought it that this leaves out the marketability aspect though. Success is often based (as LJ stated) on how many people will come out and see the sponsors’ logos, vans, etc. How many will come to said town and spend tourist dollars in that local economy. How many will purchase the camera that so-and-so did an ad for, or drink the beer that whatshisface held up and smiled next to in a commercial.

    If we are talking pro sports here, how is it that female tennis stars (go ahead, say her name — Kournikova) are able to bring in the big bucks (sponsorship-wise, and ticket sales too) yet most cannot make the zillion-mile-an-hour aces their male counterparts can? In Kournakova’s case (who, while she was no slacker, never won a WTA title in singles) the easy answer is sex appeal – and she definitely had it… (yep, back to the CyclePassion calendar debate from a few months back — do women require great sex appeal to be marketable athletes? Is their sex appeal indeed their most marketable trait?) Yet, back to tennis – it was women like Navratilova (not your typical bombshell type) who were often credited with breaking through the glass ceiling and making major strides in bridging the gap between men’s and women’s pro tennis pay in the 70’s. In addition, what can be said of female runners who have seen a respectable amount of fame and in turn brought attention to their sport — and are not the obvious blonde bombshell type?

    So back to pay as determined solely by measurable output – miles, speed, power, etc. I don’t think it covers all the bases when it comes to sports and how we determine financial rcompensation.

  29. A boycott is a powerful tool. women unite and support the races that support you. When you take away a promoter’s entry fee, you take away their power. Just simply don’t race the races you complain about. oversimplified? maybe. But i’m fairly confident it would work.

  30. People in this country seem to try very hard to be “an invidual or unique” as long as it works in their favor. Soon as they feel slighted, then the cry for equality rings out.
    The payout scale for men vs women can easily be understood by anyone that took Economics 101.
    And let’s not overlook the other benefits that are gained just by entering a well organized race? Swag, prizes, access to reps, a good time. I added having fun last, b/c it doesn’t seem like it’s high on a lot of peoples list.

  31. The cycling equivalent of Kournakova is Liz Hatch. She is known for her looks, not her results.


    I think she went over to Europe for all of 2010. I’ve heard it was something less than spectacular. And, as for the usa cycling link above, I can’t be reading that right. Her last domestic win was in the 2008 Panoche Valley Road Race in a 1/2/3 field of four? Why is the woman’s 4/5 list eight deep?

  32. @Low Brow— I respectfully disagree, regarding women’s tennis.

    The ladies’ game is simply more entertaining to watch for its serve-and-volley play, than the mens’ game with fucking 150 MPH serves that require response times shorter than MLB players facing fast balls.

    I think this example is important— despite themselves, pro tennis is better among the women’s ranks than the men’s. Can this be applied to other sports?

  33. Mikey, good point. I’ve heard that from other fans of tennis. Action is action. As long as there is competition, you’ve got sport. Think of the numbers of women who play tennis around the world. It’s staggering. The top pros are the cream of that crop. Cycling, especially in the United States, is not yet reached that point.

  34. …the lovely liz hatch has been hanging her bibshorts on astana’s tomas vaitkus’ bedpost for a while now…the lithuanian vaitkus was 18th in sunday’s paris-roubaix – rolled in with the hushovd, flecha group 47 sec down…

    …as for liz, i dunno if she’s even racing in 2011…

  35. It took the fucking federal government to step in with Title IV to make colleges spend the same on women’s sports as they did on mens. This shouldn’t be a surprise. The Men’s National Rugby Championship gets television coverage while the women’s labors away in obscurity, even though students of the game know that the women play a purer form of rugby. It was a huge deal when Annika Sorenstam and Michelle Wie teed off in PGA events. Annika was the best female golfer in the world at the time. Or the stupid Bobby Riggs Billy Jean King fiasco of the 70’s.

    Still, for the sake of pure sport, I don’t care if I’m watching the LPGA or the PGA, I’ll see great golf. I don’t care if the women are riding or the men, I’ll see great racing. I do care about watching rugby and hoop. The women’s game is purer than the men’s in both instances. Watch the Stanford Women’s hoop team if you want to watch great hoop. I think the catalyst for true equality will arrive on the soccer field. Some day.


  36. Anyone who wants to argue that we’ve made “great strides” in advancing womens’ bike racing need only look at the latest issue of Velo News, and count the number of pages devoted to womens’ racing versus the number of pages devoted to mens’ racing. If you’re still not convinced, check out Universal Sports and see how many WOMENS’ cycling events get television coverage.

    That any race at all offers equal mens’ and womens’ prize purses today amazes me.

    For a myriad host of reasons historical and perhaps biological, a lot of people — and especially men — still squirm when they are asked to watch women flexing their muscles, behaving aggressively and, well, just plan BEING STRONG IN PUBLIC.
    Womens’ power, expressed in almost any form, is still scary for some men, even if they can’t fully articulate their fear.

    We have a VERY long way to go before we can use the word “parity” in a sentence about bike racing, or indeed about most other sports.

  37. has anybody ever considered that women’s racing just isn’t as entertaining?

  38. @Mikey, actually, we agree on this. I made the same assertion last time this discussion came up (I’m a tennis fan, grew up going to ATP tourney here in Cincy every year with my dad). Totally agree on the lengthier rally, etc. But what I’m thinking of, is how does cycling get someone who becomes the female face of the sport, brings attention to the sport, to generate the kind of attention that say, Billy Jean King did for womens tennis, or Joan Benoit did for female runners. Or, that he-who-will-not-be-named did for cycling in the USA.

  39. @Beth H — really interesting perspective… I’d like to hear more of your thoughts on this. Hit me up on the outside. J has my contact info.

  40. @Jonny & Low Brow— unfortunately, I think pro tennis is an anomaly. I think the ATP et al need to shorten the service box a little bit for men, which will do away with the 150 MPH serve and bring serve-and-volley play back to the game. This would make the men’s game much more entertaining to watch.

    I find it interesting that this modern technology hasn’t made Amazons of the ladies. (Venus Williams notwithstanding.) Height is critical, and the pure power to hit the ball that hard.

    There is a lesson here, but it’s elusive.

  41. Actually, I recalled a slightly oblique explanation for the popularity of women’s tennis: Accessibility.

    The idea is that the ladies play more like “real” tennis players, not doped-up superhumans. There’s not one guy sitting on his couch thinking, “I can serve like Roger Federer,” but there’s lots of guys that can watch a great volley and think, “Maybe I could do that.”

    Serving an ace: yawn. Reading your opponent and running down his cross-court shot to drill a backhand winner down the line— that feels fucking GREAT.

    Would it make sense for women’s sports to look at this angle to attract fans?

  42. …read aeg sports/messicks concept statement & it’s fairly benign…there is no attempt to create ‘women vs men’ spectacle or controversy through the format…

    …perhaps it should be a separate prize list for the women ‘with’ a substantial added bonus for any women beating the men’s times…

    …these guys will have 6 days of racing in there legs & the women’s field is an invitational of some of the top time-trialists in the country…it is an opportunity to showcase a limited number of the best women riders in front of huge crowds…

    …it can be a case of ‘win/win’ or it can be a case of ‘let’s piss on our own sidi’s’…wonder how it’ll play out ???…

  43. wems an mens are diff. they should be defined as such but share the same system of measure within each group.

  44. @Mikey re #49 – I’m not sure I follow your point on the accessibility angle (not to say I am digging my heels in to disagree, I am just not following). Can you elaborate? My initial gut reaction is that viewers/fans want to see superheroes, larger than life, etc (from both male and female athletes). Granted, I am basing this purely on anecdotal evidence and personal opinion, nothing more… so there is a lot of room for rebuttal there. Just interested in hearing more of your idea on this.

  45. @Mikey – def agree on the stand out aspect of WTA’s massive success though (although I would think LPGA is up there too).

  46. @Low Brow— “accessibility” is an oblique argument, but I think it’s credible. The idea is that we’re watching an athlete do something we might do, we can relate. I agree that “super heroes” might be what I want to watch on Mont Ventoux, etc., but in ladies’ tennis, it’s literally the absence of the 150 MPH serve that makes it watchable.

  47. @57 – yowsa – what the fuck were they doing over the yellow line? thanks for posting that. i had no idea they had a cat 4 division for that race. hot damn.

  48. looks like a dirt road to me. definitely there’s no yellow line though. girlfriend bladed into a soft patch of dirt on the right shoulder then vectored left back in into the bunch.

  49. …watch it real close…it’s like a ‘speed wobble’ with no real traction in the dirt…

    …initially her front wheel slips to her left which prompts her momentum & weight to carry her to the right…she tries to straighten it up, oversteers & the wheel instantly washes out to the right, throwing her onto her left side so quickly that she rolls sideways on her back with the bike still attached, taking out the other two riders…

    …reasonably high velocity, hard-pack dirt road with gravel patches, road tires…definitely a combination that requires skills acquired over time…

    …tour of the battenkill…pro-am…64 miles, pave’ & dirt…floyd landis rode to 2nd last year…

  50. rump-shaker’s Video embedded:

    and damn if that wasn’t a god smack. I watched it about 10 times and that shit looked like a loosing battle right from the start. Damn.

  51. @Mikey – Thanks for clarification. Now, forgive me if I’m oversimplifying here, but how do we reconcile this accessibility point that you are making (for womens tennis) with the argument posed by other participants in the overall debate, stating that female cyclist will not (and some have said should not) gain equal compensation or market viability, because they do not reach the same speeds as the men out there on the road?

  52. @Low Brow— aye, there’s the rub; as several have pointed out, the clock doesn’t care if your male or female. Thus, the TT doesn’t compare well to tennis.

    It’s a matter of tactics. In tennis, the ladies play a serve-and-volley game because (almost) no one has a killer serve. Not much tactics in a TT.

  53. …low brow & mikey…what’s going to be interesting now that there is a straight up $10,000 to be split between the 12 women riders, however the organizers deem fit for the placings, you know there will be a reference as to how the women would have fared had the original format been followed…

    …& personally, i’m interested as fuck to know…

    …the whole issue is like handling the proverbial hot potato while standing on the proverbial slippery slope, if i’m allowed to mix my metaphors…

    …but something i noted was that a number of the women that will actually be racing were very specific about seizing the opportunity, even in it’s original format because they realize there aren’t as many chances for women’s racing with the economy being what it is, so this was a gift horse they weren’t going to look in the mouth…

    …in a bad economy sometimes idealism & reality don’t always equate…