Kimmage

I’ve been getting some emails of later regarding one Paul Kimmage. For the record, I happen to agree with just about everything the man said. Back in September and last week at the Tour of California. Armstrong is over. It’s time for something new.

I got this email the other day:

Subject: Public Beatdown
By Armstrong!
This is a ski forum with a bike forum in it. Read the post about the reporter (Kimmage) and what he says about Armstrong. Then click on the video and listen to Armstrong’s reply.

www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151346

A public beatdown…

Let me explain something. This is not about cancer. This is about a man who used PEDs to win bicycle races. All this talk about cancer is ridiculous. Kimmage’s comments were out of line. Clumsy at best. At best. And that’s being generous. Very generous. He shouldn’t have said it. It played badly. It opens the response that an attack on Armstrong is an attack on everyone who had had cancer, everyone who has cancer now, and everyone who is ever going to get cancer. And that is not a battle one can win.

But, this is not about cancer. This is about drug use in professional cycling.

From: big jonny
All:
The problem is this: If a kid with cancer puts a poster of Lance Armstrong on the wall and gets inspiration from it, what happens when the kid finds out Armstrong used PED’s to win? If what you say is true, that all cyclists use drugs, then you have only shown this to be the worship of a false idol. That is the bottom line.

If the French hate him, and I’m not entirely sure that they do, it is because the French watch their cyclists and it is harder for them to cheat. As such, they do not win. Those that cheat win races. The French cyclists are not weak. The French cyclists are not cowards. The French cyclists are clean. That is the bottom line.

Bonds home run record will always have an asterisk next to it. And so will Armstrong’s seven Tour wins. That is the bottom line.

You may not like what Kimmage said re: cancer in the sport (and I will not try to defend his comments), but know this – he will be remembered as one of those that spoke out. Same with Lemond. Same with Walsh. You can vilify them, call them jealous, question their motivation, and question their character. But it is all a diversion, an ad hominem attack of the messenger and not the substance of his message.

You will look back on this someday. What will your bottom line be then?

You decide.

Lance Armstrong goes off on journalist at the Amgen Tour of California press conference:
grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation…

Costs and Complexities Sink Armstrong’s Testing Plan:
nytimes.com/2009/02/12…

Cycling Teams’ Internal Testing Is Drawing Criticism :
nytimes.com/2009/02/13…

Lance adds confusion to doping fight:
sports.espn.go.com

Armstrong ‘naive’ to withdraw from Catlin doping programme, says Millar:
guardian.co.uk

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About big jonny

The man, the legend. The guy who started it all back in the Year of Our Lord Beer, 2000, with a couple of pages worth of idiotic ranting hardcoded on some random porn site that would host anything you uploaded, a book called HTML for Dummies (which was completely appropriate), a bad attitude (which hasn’t much changed), and a Dell desktop running Win95 with 64 mgs of ram and a six gig hard drive. Those were the days. Then he went to law school. Go figure. Flagstaff, Arizona, USA

44 thoughts on “Kimmage

  1. Armstrong wants to impress me, get off the TDF trip and do the Giro, Vuelta, Paris-Roubaix.

    Fuck, do something you HAVEN’T done. But doing the TDF again??? Please…

  2. I totally forgive kimmage for calling lance the “cancer” and stating that it’s “out of remission.” i don’t even need to forgive him, really, because that shit didn’t make me mad in the first place. in fact, there’s not a metaphor more well-suited to describe the sort of plague that has been eating peoples’ guts around the world. lance can claim what he wants, and i know that he is dumping much-needed money into cancer research. that much we know, lance. get off it already. to take a public “butt hurt” stance like that and suggest that using cancer as the metahpor for so many of today’s frustrating issues is inappropriate, is completely misleading and also a blatant abuse of influence. Lance can suck it. Cancer touched my life. It touched my life really fucking hard when it took my mom, and i think that sort of tragedy, that loss and that sting is not too different than the sting felt when children, aspiring cyclists, and regular ol’ dickwads get slapped in the face by another one of their heros crossing the finish line with the help of the drugs. that shit hurts too. it also hurts a freshly tuned-in populace of fans who have the potential to bolster this entire industry. anyhow. fuck you, cancer. fuck you, lance. fuck you hard.

  3. am I the only one convinced that Lance was reading from a carefully prepared script for that one? ..a script written by a PR professional even?

    the notion that anyone touched by cancer would never forgive Kimmage for using the, or a, cancer metaphor is almost laughable were in not for the unfortunate truth that many people will happily have their opinions and beliefs spoon fed to them so they dont’ have to actually do any thinking themselves.

    lance.. ..pfft.

  4. Dammit, y’all scooped me.

    Having been at the Santa Cruz stage of ATOC yesterday, it really hit hard- this 2nd coming of Lance. So to speak.
    I see people on this site refer to Obama as the “annointed one”, and it saddens me in the exact same way as the TV billing which refers to Lance with tags like “Immortality” and “Redemption”. The LAF passed out yellow chalk before the racers raced racily by, and the package read: “Hope Rides Again”. Seriously.
    Hey party people! Lance is not your promised savior! Obama is not more than a guy in a position to do a job! Stop looking to _ucking outer space for a fix, and get on with making it happen around you. Ride your bike and have a good time. That’s a lot.

    My chalked message for Lance? “No Messiah. No Dope. Ride”

  5. Journalists that are crusaders are a big fail in my opinion. They are just another marketing aspect of the publications they work for. I’d like to argue that they try dredge up as much crap as they can in order to sell their name, make money and pad their ego. They are no better than the dopers…just different.

  6. As any jury knows, the secondary indicators are often more indicative of the truth than the “facts”. Wild theories, allegations of prejudice, intimidation, lawsuits speak to the underlying truth. Interesting that Armstrong, Landis, Ulrich, and Hamilton (all dopers, yo!) subsequently were divorced/dumped after doping allegations came to light. Maybe Basso confessed to save his marriage (good man, if that’s the case)? Come to think of it, Darth Vader and Dr. Evil are notably partner-less.

  7. Snake Hawk…cancer took my mom too…sorry dude.

    i’m not a bit pissed at kimmage…the metaphor used was completely taken outta context, imho, by la. i wonder if la is pissed at john dean for saying the watergate conspiracy was “a cancer on the presidency”? fuckin’ idiot…

    we should just stop listening and maybe he’ll go away…the racing always exacts its’ toll and then we’ll all know the truth…

  8. Jesus you guys. Lance has never failed a test, so calling him a doper is out of line. And he pulls a ton for Cancer research. He pulled a ton for Levi, like a stand-up guy. So why all the hate?

    His chances for the Tour seem slim to me, so I think it will be interesting if he rides it. Like some of you, I’d be more impressed if he took out the Giro.

    Me, I got my first 14 miles of the season yesterday. That fullie is like riding a boat anchor. Awoo n’shit.

    Mikey

  9. “i wonder if la is pissed at john dean for saying the watergate conspiracy was “a cancer on the presidency”? fuckin’ idiot…”

    so full of win, i don’t know where to begin.

  10. The dopers can’t fail a dope test that doesn’t check for some of the new crap the drug companies keep coming up with. Look at CERA. There needs to be a change in thinking about drugs. Right now all sports are reactionary, putting things on banned lists after dudes and dudettes have already used them to become “heroes”. Make it simple, everything is off limits until the governing bodies say it is cool. That way the drug companies (who make waaaay too much money) will have to spend their cash on the sports organizers to get things approved. Budgets do better with they infusion of cash, and everyone knows that everything is not allowed. If I came up with a new drug (I can’t believe Huey Lewis and the News just popped into my head), it wouldn’t be illegal for quite some time, so use it to succeed, then feign ignorance later, that you didn’t know it was helping; after you have cashed the checks of course.

  11. Douche: I heard you’re a asshole, how do you respond?
    Asshole: Are you calling me an asshole, Douche?
    Douche: Thanks, now everyone knows I’m a douche.
    Asshole: And I’m in the news again!

  12. okay drugs work. And Landis was a scapegoat. But What? these dude are the best in the world. I would love to see ricco racing. Fuck the stupid laws. let them blow up. then the kids might realize this is not fun and games. The sad fact is that very few people make it in professional sports and drugs ain’t going to help you get there. And come on Greg you were just as guilty.

  13. Kimmage asked the wrong question. He made it personal and opened up the opportunity for lance’s pr flacks to give him a script. Why not ask about the failed ‘transparency’/Catlin program? Why not press on about how AEG seems to have changed their own rules, again, to allow Puerto suspects to race this year, when last year they could not? What about the fact that Lance has ties to major pharma, the race is sponsored by the inventor of EPO, and yet the ToC has repeatedly proved to have some of the most lax drug testing of any major North American race? Kimmage is a good man, who wrote a great book and continues to post good columns, but his passion interfered with his judgment. Lance is an egoist, who has done a lot to benefit the cancer community, but who’s arrogance makes me taste bile every time he smugly gives a press conference. He shoulda stayed retired, IMHO.

  14. LA has been tested 18 times since he returned…… 18 random times.

    What more do you want?

    And if you think this ToC is boring, then you didn’t see Levi lay down the law on the last climb of yesterdays sage, Macebo go on a flyer that lasted all day and then also take the sprint finish, Cancelera spank everyone with a raging fever, or Thor whoop ass today.

    WTF?

    These guys have been slogging through some nasty shit and racing their asses off.

    Tomorrow suposed to be nicer, but guess what, they’re scraping the snow off the last KOM as I type this.

    kg

  15. I think you were spot on in your critique of Armstrong’s attitude towards Kimmage. This guy is full of contradictions himself. Its hard to imagine what he couldn’t be hiding. Ofcourse, he’s not going to come clean. He has too much to lose at this point..having built a foundation, millions of inspired ones around the world, thousands of cycling fans…
    Oh..this might be a little out of topic. Cozy Beehive has got Inspector Cleuseau to investigate Lance’s stolen TT bike. http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/ Kimmage is one of the suspects. Hilarious so far.

    Kirk

  16. ToC is a fun race to watch, no doubt. The new teams all look good, the racing is pretty much on form and the weather adds an edge to it that makes the racers seem more human. The ESPN and NYT columns that point out significant questions about doping, Armstrong and the sanctioning of the sport are not inflamatory articles. They ask fair questions from good journalists who have done their homework. There is a fanatic level of defense for Armstrong among his fans, spurred on by his own smug deflections. Like Snake and Mike, I lost my mom to cancer. Lance meant a lot to her while she was still fighting, and to me. I rode for the roses, I get the Livestrong message. I can also separate my appreciation for a public figure raising awareness, research money, support for victims, etc. with my feelings about Armstrong as an athlete in a sport I love. There are a lot of seemingly simple questions he’s repeatedly, and more and more arrogantly refused to answer. There are a lot of things about EPO and his relationships with the drug and it’s manufacturers that as a cancer caregiver, I feel he should say, could say, would be much more helpful to say, that he doesn’t say. The history of the sport is full of dope. The quaint articles and magazine features about the good-ol-days acknowledge it with a wink and a nod. We’re all complacent in turning the other cheek. Anyone who’s watched the sport passionately has forgiven a hero, or ignored the pinned eyes in close up. Some of us have been beat in local races by doped mid-life crisis cat 4 idiots searching for the fountain of youth. Some have seen young highschool athletes destroyed by the desire to get bigger stronger faster. Armstrong, and all of cycling, can only avoid answering the questions for so long. Maybe now, with journalists from outside the sport doing the asking, the code of silence will crack.

  17. Wow! there are some seriously ignorant folks chiming in on this subject! It’s obvious that trial by fire is what you guys are all about, you’ve got Lance so pegged. “he’s a doper!” “he’s lying through his teeth… he did EPO!”, “Lance won all seven doing PEDs”
    You are all hypocrites and no one gives a shit about your lame ass, conspiracy theory, antihero bullshit! It’s so obvious that not one person replying above has even set foot within 100 miles of a pro peloton because your so jaded by the press that you have swallowed the negative hype… Hook, line and stinker!
    Your opinion will only matter when you have only real facts and actual evidence to base these reCOCKulous claims and until then (hell will freeze over) assholes like you will be ignored and laughed at, and as usual you will be banished to working as a slack assed bike mechanic in some shithole in the wall bike shop until you wake up and get a clue!
    Grow up you fuckin morons!

  18. he tested + once but had a tue for the drug. other than that he has not one blemish on his record. he has done more for the sport than anyone posting on this blog. (except big jonny) why do you all care so much about his business. anyone who shitslapps his competition like he does is gonna have the shady eye cast upon them. so unless you really get your rocks off watching fat fuckers getting dropped then enjoy his comeback. So calm down, let lance shoot down Mr. asshole reporter, go ride your bike. and lets all hope for a little less doping.

  19. “It’s so obvious that not one person replying above has even set foot within 100 miles of a pro peloton”

    Mark-

    Um, gee, I don’t get that vibe on this web site at all. Where I live, which I realize is the far corner of the cycling universe, they usually roll out as “CAT1/2/PRO.” Some of those guys are fast, like Tommy Peterson, if you looked at the news at all yesterday.

    Thank you for the opportunity to reply. Have a nice ride. Keep the rubber side down.

    Mikey

    PS- did they let Tommy have the stage because he flatted in the start house for the prologue and finished DFL? I tend to doubt it. Go, Tom!!

  20. Journalism: The collecting, writing, editing, and presenting of news or news articles in newspapers and magazines and in radio and television broadcasts.

    Editorial: An article in a publication expressing the opinion of its editors or publishers.

    Paul Kimmage is neither a journalist, nor a reporter.

    While his opinion is very entertaining to read, it is just his opinion which he has printed and profited from.
    He says he wants to clean up this sport.
    Great, how much money has he raised and donated from the money he makes to do that?
    I suspect it is nadda’.

    So, since he really has performed no actual journalism, or investigative reporting, he is nothing more then a profiteering muckraker.
    Period.
    He is nothing more.

    It makes no difference if a certain guy did, or did not do as he has been repeatedly accused, but never found guilty of.
    The actions and statements of Kimmage is only to serve one thing, make him and his publisher money.

    He is simply a charlatan in the guise of a saint.
    – Ryan

  21. …there are plenty of people out there who think kimmages “cancer” reference was a good analogy…personally, i found it to be pathetic but then again, like a number of others here, i lost my mom to cancer…full blown bone cancer as a matter of fact…& at that point it involves a lotta pain, drugs & confusion…in other words, it’s not even close to being a dignified way to leave the decades of life you’ve lived…it’s an ugly fucking way to die…

    …say what you will about the man’s ego, his ruthlessness, how inefficient his foundation is, any direction ya wanna take it but there is no way to deny the fact that lance ‘fucking’ armstrong continues to raise both serious awareness & money in the fight against cancer…

    …so…i can only say that while lance armstrong may have doped (& i’ve never said he didn’t just as i’ve never said he did…i don’t have proof either way & for yer edification, i in no way condone drug use), then he would have been one of a high percentage of top professionals who may have done so…therefore, rather than constantly address one high profile individual, why are you “lance haters” not directing your vitriol at the actual problem &/or all the cyclist’s involved ???…

    …you’d be fucking naive to believe that armstrong & the very few who’ve made admissions are the only ones who may have been involved in the practice ???…

    …anyway, as far as that press conference goes, good lord, listen to the leading (read: pretentious) question posed by kimmage…talk about an agenda…that question is designed to do nothing but inflame & of course bring kimmage himself back to the limelight as a “serious” journalist…

    …personally, i thought kimmage deserved armstrong’s well crafted response…armstrong is no more manipulative than paul kimmage…they both have a bike racers mentality & they go for the jugular…kimmage bled, lance not so much…

    …& to answer a question directed at me personally (not on this blog), no, i do not work for or pal about w/ lance armstrong…i have a large ego but not the kind that would bring me into his circle…

    …that being said, it would be an absolute privilege to shake the man’s hand & say “thank you” for my own personal reason…

    …i had an extremely serious medical problem (no, not cancer) wherein i almost died during the time of the 2002 tour…i lay in a hospital bed before a massive surgical procedure, assuming i would live but not certain of it, looking up at tv coverage & thought “that motherfucker defied the odds w/ his comeback…that drive & determination is my inspiration…i will be back to life & the bike & i will come back hard”…

    …it certainly took me several years to fully recover but i guarantee you, while i have to use my head & cycle intelligently, i don’t hold myself back…

    …consider me only one person that lance armstrong has inspired…

  22. Mark,
    The closest I’ve been to the Pro peleton was riding in the car, carrying bags up room, handing up bottles in the feed zone, washing bikes, tuning bikes, installing bar tape & der. cables, changing cassettes, sorting out wheel changes during the race, glue’n up tubs, and all that sort of thing. Close. But not “in”.

    And, I can tell you this much; doping is real.

    The question I have is not whether Lance Armstrong used PEDs, rather, whether any of his “fans” care that he did. And, from what I’ve been hearing for years now, the answer is two fold: a) a continued denial (i.e., never positive, one positive explained) and b) if he did, it was because everyone else did it (i.e., every other top five Tour finisher).

    That’s it in a nutshell. And I think it stinks.

  23. “The question I have is not whether Lance Armstrong used PEDs, rather, whether any of his “fans” care that he did.”

    Jonny-

    Do you watch professional football, baseball or basketball? How do you feel about the stars in those sports?

    Once again, I think we need to be clear on the distinction between “sport” and “entertainment.” From what I can see, the former is contested by CAT2 homeboys and the latter by those fellow you seen on ESPN.

  24. Well junny, to be serious, I don’t care that LA doped. had they all been natural, he’d a still smoked em. His physiology is without question, above the pelican.

    The real rub, is how the org’s ousted the riders, as if doping was criminal all of the sudden. The sport has been bread on doping from caffeine, to cigarettes, to cocaine. Now that we’re all repentant moralists, it’s somehow supposed to matter?

    Hinault, with his sweet, light yellow short sleeve office shirt & brown pants, handing out goodie bags full of chapstick, lions and coupons to all those “poor peasant farmer boys” that win a stage in “le toor” is proof positive, that those dudes scapegoated the cyclists to save face. They didn’t just “stumble” on the problem of doping. Shit has been systemized into cycling since WWII.

    Those boys – the poor peseant farmer kids – are just trying to win is all, and last I checked, I needed to add octane to my motor to. This Moral debate can go straight to hell on the back of my tandem because all it’s done, is slowed the sport and cause excessive rehtoric over nothing. What the fuck? Am I supposed to feel morally repulsed that some douchebag on a bike dies, because he doesn’t know what 60% hematocrit will do to him in his sleep? Fuck it. Fuck it. I have my pair of Die, and so does everyone else. Say a prayer. Good luck. Blow on it honey.

    And above that, USADA/WADA/Riis/Bruneel/Le Toor/USA Cycling have all done a shit ass hack job ousting the riders. They are glorified MBAA swill.

    I’m hugly indifferent though. See you in hell, asap.

  25. Gnome, et all:
    I think I just hit a highwater mark in caring. I wrote a few words a bit back and then worked on a shit ton more stuff in the library and then came back. I really don’t think I care anymore. Armstrong doped, they all doped. If you offered me something, right now, that would make me learn this shit – I’d take it. I’d dope in a heart beat. I no longer care.

    My dope weighs a ton.

  26. …i agree it stinks…

    …& as a fan of both the sport & mr armstrong, it’s w/ a sad laugh that i say that if he did (& ya, in my heart i think that he, like the majority did) he sure as fuck did a better job of it than most…

    …as gnomer basically sez, either way, w/ that mindset, the man’s a stone cold killer…

    …do i wanna see the sport “clean” ???…bet yer ass…do i honestly think it ever will be ???…well, at this point i’m stumped…every time i think it’s gonna get better, somebody throws in a new ‘improved’ monkey wrench…

    …but when a man gets off his deathbed & inspires you to get off yours, he’s still an inspiration…

    …& if that leaves me as a man of weak moral fiber, well, just sayin’…

  27. I think Eddie got popped twice. And I think he owned up to one of ‘em. The second he claims someone put something in his water bottle or some shit.

  28. Lance Armstrong is a CANCER on cycling. Just as Greg Lemond says he doesn’t have the VO2max to win a major tour. But with blood doping, either “classic” or EPO or EPO-facsimile he does.

    Everybody on the “inside” knows what a doper Lance is and they all want what he got by cheating so they cheat too.

    Lance Armstrong failed SIX urine samples for EPO. Sure they weren’t legally permissible but that is a technicality. Those GC-MS machines are good down to parts per billion.

    No 155# man can put out 470 watts sustained for over 1/2 an hour at the end of a six hour stage two weeks into a major tour. That is simply outside of the human envelope. But with the right blood doping there you have it; One Big Fat Cancer Cell on Cycling; Lance “Big Dick” Armstrong.

  29. The sport clean, is salvation for amateurs. That’s the only reason to get the dope out. Nevermind nailing L.A. for managing the political fallout of being ensconced in that era… and indulging.

  30. …ya, right bush43…it’s ALL armstrong’s fault…in fact, on top of instigating all the doping of his era, he prob’ly arranged to have his tt rig stolen the other night just so he could get a little more publicity, huh ???…

    …actually, a better theory for the stolen bike would be that chad gerlach’s ol’ sacramento rummy pals stole it out of admiration for their bud gettin’ his shit together & going back to bike racing…“here ya go, chad…we knowed ya was hurtin’ for a good bike n’ all, so we got ya a cool one…’sides, that lance guy’s got plenty of ‘em, right ???”

    …& gee, mikey…better on whatever yer ridin’ than crammed into the dropouts of some beat up pretend mtb magna…

  31. bike punk hit the nail on the head with his first reply in this thread. Do some spring classics, the giro, the vuelta, get over the TdF thing.

    bush43 – good handle, you’re as much of an idiot as the real bush 43. Armstrong has some of the highest VO max readings ever recorded at the USOTC – do your research, stop taking your lead from our last whitehouse disgrace. The tests you claim were positive were using an experimental method that was never approved. Why was it never approved? too many false positives. Sure, gas chromatography is accurate as hell, it will detect what ever you tell it to, even molecules that aren’t related to the article under test.

    Kimmage is just another disgruntled racer who couldn’t hang. BGW’s response about kimmage is right on the money.

    I know and race with alot of guys that feel the same way about armstrong as bush43, and these are typically the guys that always have some excuse for not racing well, always ready to blame someone else for them not being in the right place when the break goes away, always yelling at their teammates for ‘failing’ to bring the break back. Never taking _any_ responsibility for their own pathetic lack of results.

    I hope lance takes the ToC today.

  32. It’s been cool to have a TOC with so many names…of course some of those big names are returning after getting busted.
    LA needs to transition to senior status / cycling elder….the best for all concerned.
    My second time to a big f’ing stage race up close.

    To stand with huge crowds in pouring rain as they cheer cyclists,..
    that’s so fucking great. Really.

    The press mostly doesn’t know how to write a bike race story..but they know how to do a dope story.

    And who isn’t happy when a stolen bike is returned?

  33. Zen,
    Why frame your argument that anyone who claims doping is “just another disgruntled racer who couldn’t hang”?

    How then do you handle accusations by legitimate reporters? Demand to see a copy of their recent race results? Or, is it that anyone who previously participated in bicycling racing cannot pass judgment unless they won? And won what? And won it when?

    Kimmage raced as a pro. He wrote a book about doping. He is accused of a) spitting in the soup (telling it like it is) and b) being “just another disgruntled racer who couldn’t hang”. Lemond has made accusations. He is vilified in much the same manner. But, in Lemond’s case, he won the Tour. Three times. And yet, they say he’s disgruntled, not because he didn’t win, but because he is jealous that someone else won more.

    Where does it end? You had to have won the event in the prior year? This is ridiculous.

    Regarding VO2 max: I quick google search shows Armstrong’ reported max to be 85. Lemond’s is reported to be above 90 (~92.5). Big difference. Huge difference. And I seriously doubt LA’s 85 is among “some of the highest VO max readings ever recorded at the USOTC.”

    My feelings about Lance Armstrong’s drug use have nothing to do with me making excuses for being a fat, out of shape slob. They have everything to do with what I know about drug use in cycling. I’ve talked with a man who represented Greg Strock. I’ve talked to a man who worked for Motorola. I’ve talked with a man raced on Motorola. There was drug use. There is no confusion on the matter. None. There was drug use. You may choose not to believe me, and I’m comfortable with that. I understand your choice. But realize it for what it is – a choice to ignore reality in favor of a fairy tale.

  34. …w/ that in mind, sir, what i don’t understand is why all the vitriol directed at one man whereas great numbers of cyclist’s were “obviously” involved ???…

  35. …w/ that in mind, sir, then why is the vitriol directed at one particular cyclist rather than the the broad spectrum of cyclist’s who were undoubtedly involved ???…