Next time you hear someone in Arizona bitching about “those damn Mexicans” or whatever other colorful phrase is in vogue, remind them that not more than 160 years ago, all of this was Mexico.
They call it the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. It was signed on February 2, 1848.
The rest of it went to the US via the Gadsden Purchase in 1853.
Phoenix? Part of Mexico prior to 1848. Tucson, Yuma and Sierra Vista? All in Mexico up to 1853.
I wonder how many of those dumpfucks actually know the history of the place they live in?
Maliot Jaune on July 1st, 2008 8:04 am
160 year ago? Who cares.
Poppymann on July 1st, 2008 8:42 am
The irony is that the ones who bitch the most are in the midwest and hte south. These are the same people that get all their learnin’ from Faux News.
John on July 1st, 2008 8:42 am
“all of this was Mexico.”
And now it isn’t.
big jonny on July 1st, 2008 9:02 am
Perhaps I should have made my point more clear: It is hard to claim a certain people are “invading” when they have literally been here all along.
E on July 1st, 2008 9:48 am
I’ve often thought how cool it would be if the Louisiana Purchase had never occurred, along with the rest of them. Imagine if Florida belonged to Spain, the Southwest and California to Mexico, Alaska to Russia, the entire Midwest to France, Oregon and Washington to Britain, and the good old U.S. of A was the Eastern seaboard and the Northeast.
The food here would be better, for one thing. And the cultural diversity would be outstanding. Bike racing would be more interesting too. I’d probably be spending a lot of time trying to get a French girlfriend in St. Louis.
But it’s amazing how hostile people get when I share this vision. I’ve never understood it.
bikepunk on July 1st, 2008 10:11 am
So their arguments of how they ‘want to take back Aztlan’ are true ?
Seriously though… Militant Mexicans and Anit-Immigration screechers should both STFU and deal with the fact that we have a porous border. Pay better wages to those doing your shit work, and if someone is hiring illegals, call them out on it.
I sure as shit wouldn’t want a burrito from a place owned by some dude named ‘Mitt Romney’ or ‘George Wallace’. Fuckers can all get bent.
As for me…? I’m going to see Ministry tonight. Pre-loading awaits.
el jefe on July 1st, 2008 10:32 am
You can even add the Rio Grande valley to that map, as up until the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, the border was the Nueces River (at least according to Mexico).
If Mexico had been able to establish a stable government in the early 1800s (or if the US had faltered), the world would be a very different place. The whole sunbelt would be part of Mexico. Some of the most important agricultural land in the world would have been controlled by Mexico. It’s a silly exercise, but fun to think about.
bikesgonewild on July 1st, 2008 11:00 am
…“hola, amigo, que paso ???” said the ex-pat canadian…
Mikey on July 1st, 2008 12:20 pm
“I wonder how many of those dumpfucks actually know the history of the place they live in?”
Jonny, et al-
Alls ah know is construction materials are cheaper since they put the Chinese Crapstore (TM) out by the highway, and no one can bust up and haul away concrete like Messicans.
Mikey
Wes on July 1st, 2008 12:34 pm
Let’s not forget that the Mexicans didn’t really own it either: it was Apache, Navajo, Comanche, Shoshone, Ute (amongst others) land. Natives were here before the Mexicans, the French, the English/Americans. Now they get nifty parcels of arid wasteland and a few casinos for good measure. Oh yeah, and a string of broken treaties and genocide to match.
Erik Ryberg on July 1st, 2008 1:27 pm
I once had to deal with a newspaper editor from Springerville, AZ (which sits squarely within the landscape transferred by the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo) who argued that because Mexican wolves are called “Mexican wolves,” they cannot possibly be native to the state of Arizona. This was a newspaper editor, mind you. And he really thought that. He thought he had once and for all defeated the outlandish argument that Mexican wolves ever occupied Arizona.
I finally shut him up by mentioning Canadian geese, but still.
There’s even a statue of Coronado in this guy’s town.
Cody on July 1st, 2008 1:57 pm
Technically, ‘all of this was Mexico’ was only true for a little while. It became Mexico after the Spanish War of Independence in 1821. So it was only Mexico for 25 years. Now’s it’s been America for 160. I wonder how many of those dumbfucks actually know the history of the place they live in?
I live in an America town with a Mexican Consulate (Oxnard, CA). Not many of you can say that. Mexican culture sucks.
big jonny on July 1st, 2008 2:25 pm
Fairplay, Cody. I wasn’t exactly accurate with all of that. Part of what set off that rant was finding a bunch of flyers when I was down in Phoenix a few Sunday’s back. Some white power group with a regional office in Mesa, Arizona. I didn’t link their site because I didn’t want to give ‘em any juice, web traffic, attention, etc. And I didn’t put the flyer in my post because it’s so fucking lame I can’t even find the words… I had to edit it out, and I think the post lacked something because of it not being there. But, it sucks and they suck so whatever.
You can see a copy of the flyer I uploaded here: drunkcyclist.com/uploads/2008/07/missingfl_lg.gif
It’s brutal. Just like the rest of the trash they spread around no their Saturday Night Rides.
Keep keepin on.
el jefe on July 1st, 2008 3:41 pm
It was fairplay until he made the blanket statement of, “Mexican culture sucks.” That’s a fucking dumb thing to say. And, yeah I’ve lived next to a Mexican consulate for 8 years. Whatever, more tacos for me…
Mike on July 1st, 2008 3:49 pm
WTF Jonny? When people complain about “the Mexicans”, they’re not complaining about Billy Hernandez, whose family has been in the US forever. They’re complaining about the non-English speaking illegal aliens who snuck across the border.
big jonny on July 1st, 2008 4:06 pm
Mike, assuming that is true – why do second generation citizens of Latino descent get hassled regarding their immigration status?
I would suggest it is because it’s not about whether they climbed a fence or swam a river or were born here. It is about the color of their skin alone.
Gnome on July 1st, 2008 4:10 pm
ego centrism makes me want to tell you to all fuck off. Think about it.
Erik R. on July 1st, 2008 5:16 pm
Although Cody is right that it was only Mexico’s for a short while, it is an irrelevant point–Mexico was a young country that got Spain’s holdings when it won independence, just as we Americans took England’s after our own independence. It was Spain’s under the doctrine of discovery since Coronado came through and claimed it in the early 1500’s.
Which is to say it belonged to Spain for a considerably longer period of time than it has to the U.S.A.
Notwithstanding the higher moral claim to the ground by the original inhabitants, as Wes notes. Their title goes back considerably further.
As for Mexican culture sucking, that seems to me like kind of a dumbass thing to say. The whole entire culture? By what standard? There’s plenty not to like about our own culture too. Taco Bell comes to mind.
Mike on July 1st, 2008 6:12 pm
I seriously doubt that anyone who speaks fluent non-accented English and is of Mexican descent gets hassled for their immigration status, Jonny.
I think we should have a fence along the entire border. Employers who are caught hiring illegals should be subject to fines and jail time, as should those who rent to illegals.
As for the illegals? Our policy re: illegals should be as strict as Mexico’s. Kick em out.
el jefe on July 1st, 2008 7:03 pm
Just because someone speaks with an accent they should be hassled? Who gets to choose which accents we hassle? Well, I don’t like people who speak with a Yankee accent so I’m going to start a movement to hassle the carpetbaggers. I get tan enough after a full summer of fieldwork that I get stopped for suspicion of being a Mexican. And I’m pretty European looking. There’s lots of Mexicans of European decent, so you must just mean the ones that are particularly brown.
Aside from a border fence being a total and complete waste of money, impractical to build, and except in very localized areas, an ecological disaster (not that I expect you to care about that). Our northern border is more porous, and less controlled. People are only scared about the southern one because brown people come from there.
Um, Mike our policy is similar to Mexico’s. We do kick them out. There’s just a lot more people wanting to come into the US than Mexico, therefore we have a bigger problem.
I actually do think illegal immigration is a problem. For all that they do add to our economy, there are some drains, and I think it is wrong for our economy to be propped up by a permanent underclass who has no course to become legal residents or citizens. Unfortunately, the change to a situation where we have more control over the issue can’t happen overnight.
But what does it matter? Our economy is tanking, and in 5 years, Mexico will have one of the stronger economies in the Americas and everyone will be wanting to go there…
KG on July 1st, 2008 7:28 pm
Ha ha, fuck you all, I’m half Mexican, my mother’s maiden name is Luna, she was born in Mexico and I still have family there. Frankly, I think they should control the border.
And frankly, I’m offended that people think all illegals are Mexican. What kind of ‘racist’ shit is that.
Any undocumented person from any country, Mexico or otherwise, should not be coming over without permission.
And if we’re going to play the “Who was hear first game.” Then I think many of you should think the Palestinians need to get the fuck out of Israel.
el jefe on July 1st, 2008 10:56 pm
You know KG, you and I disagree a lot, but you are completely right about the assumption that all illegals are from Mexico. I was mentioning Mexico, because that is where the discussion has been driven (especially here in TX). It’s certainly not the case in San Francisco, Seattle, or NYC and many other places.
Mike on July 2nd, 2008 12:18 am
That’s just about the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard, el jefe. What kind of accents, you ask? How about non-American accents?Nobody suspects someone with a Boston accent of being illegal. But someone with an Irish accent could well be. There are plenty of illegal Irish. It’s just that they aren’t as blatant as the Mexicans(or South/Central Americans). I see a group of illegal lawn workers every day. Six non-English speaking lawn workers. How do I know they’re illegal? Because you don’t exactly get a visa to come to the US to cut grass. But local law enforcement won’t deal with it, and the feds don’t care.
But if they were Arabs at the airport they would receive all sorts of harassment. Never mind that illegal aliens kill more Americans each year than died in the attacks of 9/11. Never mind that. Never mind the millions they cost US taxpayers in health care, incarceration, and education. Never mind that.
Cody on July 2nd, 2008 1:19 am
Jonny,
I posted a big long response, that took like a half hour to write, but when I hit submit, it never showed up, and I don’t feel like typing it. Is there some sort of time-out related to a WP post from the page first rendering to you hit submit?
Wine Dog on July 2nd, 2008 5:09 am
They way Bush has fucked up this country, I’d be happy if the Mexicans took us back.
Cal-ee-forn-ee-a.
dentext on July 2nd, 2008 6:25 am
Hedley Lamarr: There might be legal precedent! Of course, landsnatching…
[flipping through a law book]
Hedley Lamarr: land, land…”Land: see Snatch.” Ah, Hailie vs. United States. Hailie: 7, United States: nothing. You see, it can be done!
(RIP Harvey Korman)
and the people at the Alamo called themselves Texicans.
big jonny on July 2nd, 2008 8:22 am
Cody,
I looked through the 107 comments tagged as spam by Wordpress and did not see it. There should not be any time out issue that I’m aware of, but if you put in more than say, five hyperlinks, it’ll get tagged as spam.
Sorry ’bout that. I hope your future comments don’t get swallowed up by the void.
el jefe on July 2nd, 2008 8:25 am
mike, my point was that there is no such thing as an “American” accent. Go to Laredo and tell me who’s legal. Go to Chinatown or the Mission in SF and tell me who’s legal. Judging solely on accent.
Just because someone works as a laborer at a landscaping company or in construction doesn’t mean they are illegal. Talk about dumb things to say.
Local law enforcement doesn’t have the jurisdiction until they commit a crime. And you’re right the fed system is broken. Unfortunately there isn’t a quick fix.
Where do you get your stats? More people killed annually by illegals than on 9/11? I seriously doubt it.
Mike on July 2nd, 2008 3:51 pm
Get real, el jefe. People who don’t speak English, cut grass, and are obviously Mexican or South/Central American are illegal. You may want to be PC or whatever, but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that unskilled laborers don’t get visas to come here.
There were only 3000 people killed on 9/11. There are more than 3000 illegal aliens in our prisons for murder. Do the math.
The illegal Hispanic population has a huge problem with drunk driving, pedophilia, drugs, violence against women, gangs, etc.
Don’t we have enough of these problems with our native populace without importing more?
big jonny on July 2nd, 2008 5:26 pm
Mike,
First – whoa.
Second – I once worked at a golf course, in Phoenix, Arizona, where a lot of guys who cut the grass spoke English as a second language. Everyone had a card who worked there. Their papers were in order. (I can’t even type that without a German accent in my head reading along!) The company only hired guys who could prove they were legit. If they couldn’t product docs in 72 hours, they got cut loose.
These guys are not “obviously” illegal by any stretch of the imagination. Everyone who worked there was legal.
Now I don’t pretend to know how they got to legal. Could some have forged docs and stolen social security numbers? I have no way of knowing that.
But I do know that these guys, all of them working there, had the right paper work at time of hire, or within three days of hire. That, as I understand it, was the state law at the time.
I also worked with a buddy from high school who was trying to get a tree trimming business off the ground, in Phoenix as well. He could pay anyone as a day laborer for three consecutive days without inquiring about immigration status. And he did. He would pick up a few guys, depending on how many he needed for a particular project, sort out what they wanted for pay right there on the sidewalk, and they’d climb in the back of his truck. And, after a day’s work, he’d pay ‘em in cash and drop them back off in the same place.
I offer that story as support for the “three day” rule that seemed to be in effect at the time.
I have no idea how it works now. It may be different.
But, one thing I can tell you about all this, you cannot tell anything about a man’s immigration status by looking at him. And, oddly enough, you also cannot tell after working with him for three days doing manual labor.
seattle m&m on July 2nd, 2008 6:51 pm
If a half dozen men who had to leave their homes and families and go through hell for the chance to cut grass for small change are high on your list of people in the world to be angry with, I would suggest you look again.
While you’re at it, look at the wealth that US companies extract from Mexico (hint: read up on the history of Boise Cascade in Chiapas). You may find it that what we’re taking exceeds what we’re giving by not a small margin. Then again, you may be an angry racist and not terribly interested in getting your facts and priorities in some kind of rational order. Clearly you lack compassion and respect for people who are holding their own against troubles you can hardly imagine.
A good, readable, book for anyone who does want some actual facts about injustice in Mexico and the US role therein: <>.
seattle m&m on July 2nd, 2008 6:52 pm
Got cut off: the book is ‘Betrayed: The Assassination of Digna Ochoa’.
seattle m&m on July 2nd, 2008 6:57 pm
Hope it’s obvious that I’m not responding to Big Jonny, but to our white supremacist “concerned citizens” out there in the ether. I’m gonna go sleep and come back and read my flames in the morning. Night all.
Cody on July 2nd, 2008 7:56 pm
That’s was it. I put in about 5-7 hyperlinks. Mainly to some high quality photos of Ivan Basso’s sister. Like this one: http://img.freeforumzone.it/allegati/1263_39280_505374_708864.jpg
We should let sleeping dogs lie.
el jefe on July 2nd, 2008 8:18 pm
Mikey, get a fucking clue. Just because someone cuts grass and speaks with an accent doesn’t mean they are illegal. Why do people want to come to the US? Because it’s better here. Better enough that some people are willing to go through the process and come here legally to do the menial job of cutting grass, and send their money home so that their families can live a little more comfortably. I have good friends who have college degrees that have made that choice. That’s how much better it is in the US. It has nothing to do with being PC. It has to do with reality you moron. Yeah, we’ve got a problem with illegal immigration, but you cannot tell whether someone is illegal by their accent or the color of their skin.
You said, “Never mind that illegal aliens kill more Americans each year than died in the attacks of 9/11.” 3000+ illegal immigrants in prison does not equal that statement. Learn how to do math and support your statement with some facts.
As of 2005 according to the DOJ, the US had a total prison population of 2.1 million people, and aproximately 8% of then are illegal. We have approximately 300 million people in the country, and high estimate are that there are 20 million illegal immigrants in the country, which is about 7%. So illegals are incarcerated at really close to the same rate at which they make up the general population. Which is low considering they often don’t get good legal aid, and very different than blacks who make up 35% of the prison population, yet only are 10% of the general. In other words, there are some ass holes, there are some really good people, and a whole bunch in the middle. Now go shut the fuck up you racist twad.
BOB on July 2nd, 2008 10:09 pm
It’s official, that Mike guy is a Dumbass.
Rusty Sanchez on July 2nd, 2008 10:12 pm
Erik,
I live in Springerville/Eagar, and I’m pretty sure the big statue on main street is a pioneer woman, not Coronado. Besides, how does Coronado fit into this arguement? He was a white european who most likely hated mestizos. I will agree that ANY newspaper editor from Apache County is most likely an asshole. Thanks for mentioning our proud city.
AfricanSingle on July 3rd, 2008 7:45 am
Am I missing something? You mean to say people actually cross over the border INTO the US? Fuck I thought those with any sense would be going the other way. Maybe the fence is to keep you in?
el jefe on July 3rd, 2008 9:56 am
Soon, very soon…
Mikey on July 3rd, 2008 11:06 am
“He would pick up a few guys, depending on how many he needed for a particular project, sort out what they wanted for pay right there on the sidewalk, and they’d climb in the back of his truck. And, after a day’s work, he’d pay ‘em in cash and drop them back off in the same place.”
Jonny-
It would be very naive to assume that Mexicans, working day labor for cash at the end of the shift, in Phoenix AZ, are legal.
And just to be crystal clear, I’m not “Mike” nor do I share his opinion.
Keep the rubber side down, y’all.
Mikey
el jefe on July 3rd, 2008 11:32 am
Mikey, sorry about that Mike is the dumbass.
It’s naive to assume that day laborers are all either legal or illegal. The point is that you can’t tell by accent or skin tone whether someone is legally in this country or not.
Mikey on July 3rd, 2008 12:37 pm
“It’s naive to assume that day laborers are all either legal or illegal. The point is that you can’t tell by accent or skin tone whether someone is legally in this country or not.”
el jefe, et al-
I disagree. Stereotypes exist for a reason. If an hispanic gentleman living in Phoenix AZ was legal, he wouldn’t have to work busting and hauling concrete for cash at the end of the shift. I think it’s more likely than not that these fellows are in fact illegals.
Me, I blame the U.S. for its illegal immigrant problem. As long as farmers and chiseling construction contractors can hire illegal day laborers with impunity- as they have for thirty years- they will come.
Yes, this is a big problem, and no, it’s not going to be solved any time soon. You cannot deport millions of people back to Mexico, as the more narrow-minded “conservatives” suggest, nor can you simply grant them all citizenship without due process. The remaining option? A massive group (”underclass” for you liberal leaners) of people whose only way to make a living is under-the-radar manual labor or crime.
Mikey
el jefe on July 3rd, 2008 4:05 pm
Stereotypes are a dangerous thing. And while I am sure that a substantial portion, maybe even a majority, of day laborers are illegal, some aren’t and you can’t tell by accent or skin tone.
I don’t know what the solution is, but I do know that having (at least) two major industries (agriculture and construction) supported on the use (and sometimes exploitation) of a class of people who have very little power to better their condition is wrong. They can’t go complain to the boss if their working conditions are unsafe or unhealthy. OSHA doesn’t apply to illegals. Sure it keeps the cost of food and housing down, and that’s all most people care about, but it’s still wrong.