Frack me? No, frack you.

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For all you Keystone State folks out there.

From: AK
Subject: Court allows Fracking in National Forests.
I am passing this on because it is something you and others in the cycling community need to be aware of. Although natural gas extraction will have a very positive impact to PA’s economy, we’ve had many questions and concerns here in PA over the process used by the oil companies to extraction natural gas from shale, called fracking, because of many worries about lack of transparency of chemicals used in the process, contaminated well water and streams, and air quality, plus funds needed to maintain stress on bridges, roadways from heavy equipment.

. . .

A federal appeals court ruled this week that oil and gas companies can begin drilling in the Allegheny National Forest in Pennsylvania. The ruling says that the government only controls the surface rights in the national forest, not the mineral rights under the surface. This could open up drilling in all National Forests!

The ruling means they could start drilling immediately unless we act now.

There are two ways we can stop this:
1) The Obama Justice Department must appeal this ruling and ask for an injunction to halt drilling; and
2) Congress must pass legislation to stop drilling in all National Forests.

So I signed a petition to The United States House of Representatives, The United States Senate and President Barack Obama, which says: “We urge you to do everything in your power to stop oil and natural gas drilling in our National Forests.”

Will you sign this petition?

Click here:

. . .


Update: Some links on fracking.

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About big jonny

The man, the legend. The guy who started it all back in the Year of Our Lord Beer, 2000, with a couple of pages worth of idiotic ranting hardcoded on some random porn site that would host anything you uploaded, a book called HTML for Dummies (which was completely appropriate), a bad attitude (which hasn’t much changed), and a Dell desktop running Win95 with 64 mgs of ram and a six gig hard drive. Those were the days. Then he went to law school. Go figure. Flagstaff, Arizona, USA

86 Replies to “Frack me? No, frack you.”

  1. Fracking has been going on since the 50’s in the Allegheny National Forest and everywhere else around the world. There is so much mis-information about drilling on national forests, it makes those looking to do good (protect the environment) look like a bunch of yo-yo’s. In the Allegheny National Forest, the subsurface rights are privately held, and the subsurface owner has a constitutional right to their property, no law can be passed to prevent this. In disputes between the surface and sub-surface owner, the sub-surface owner is the dominant party by law. Although most internet petitions are pointless exercises that do nothing except make the signer feel good, this one in particular is for an illegal act. The only “Everything in your power” option is to use tax money to buy all of the mineral rights, an impossible scenario.

  2. I can vouch for the issue of the government controlling only surface rights for some National Forest lands as I work in land rights and am working in PA. I haven’t examined any documents for National Forest Lands, but I’m well aware that the State has been leasing off lands for drilling here for years. Unfortunately for the Fed’l. Gov’t., if they didn’t acquire the oil and gas rights in a diligent manner, there’s very little they can do to deny the rights owners access to their interest. Caveat: I’m no attorney, I could be wrong.

    I may work in the business, but its always my wish that the companies that do the work are subject to every possible regulation and safeguard as possible because either way they still make money.

  3. I must say, I agree with the comments posted above.

    From Wiki (which I presume is at least reasonably accurate):

    Recently a conflict has risen in the Allegheny National Forest over mineral rights. In 1923 the land that is now the Allegheny National Forest was purchased by the Federal Government. The federal government did not buy the subsurface or mineral rights of the land because of financial issues. Private citizens currently own ninety three percent of the subsurface land in the forest. Since the spike in oil prices around 2000 oil companies that own mineral rights have placed more drilling equipment in the forest. During an out of court settlement in April 2009 the United States Forest Service decided the National Environmental Policy Act will govern all oil and gas drilling in the forest. The National Environmental Policy Act will make any oil or gas drilling in the forest subject to public judgment. On June 1, 2009, the Minard Run Oil Co., Pennsylvania Oil and Gas Association, Allegheny Forest Alliance and Warren County Government sued the United States District Court in Erie Pennsylvania over the National Forest Services use of the National Environmental Policy Act.

    Rights are rights. Right? Snark aside (man, that’s hard to do around here), there is the public comment issue mentioned in the quote above. I honestly don’t know much about it other that what I’ve read in articles such at this:

  4. The attempt to use NEPA to limit access isn’t working out so well, the latest ruling was against such use.
    In addition, all these attempts to use NEPA have locked up all development on the ANF, including construction of new mountain bike trails by volunteers. It all sucks in multiple ways, but it is the “Land Of Multiple Uses” so I guess that’s the way it goes.

  5. Mike Z Says:
    “Fracking has been going on since the 50’s in the Allegheny National Forest and everywhere else around the world. There is so much mis-information about drilling on national forests, it makes those looking to do good (protect the environment) look like a bunch of yo-yo’s.”

    The size, scope and depth of fracking is far bigger than that of the 50’s. Also with “new technologies” and new chemicals.

    Humans have been doing a lot of dumb shit since the 50’s and long before. Just because it hasn’t killed us yet doesn’t make it Ok.

  6. I’m no new age, born again, trendoid greenie, BUT:
    any process that injects large volumes of noxious chemicals deep underground and thereby pollutes the groundwater is completely unacceptable. Full stop.

  7. @AfricanSingle

    And what large volumes of noxious chemicals are you referring too ??

    It’s water and sand being pumped in.

  8. People in general seem to conflate “national forest” and “national park.” They are not the same. Out here in the great pacific northwest, I was shocked to see the nationa forest – and the state forest, for that matter – subject to clear cutting. Yep, it happens regularly. Washington’s great Capitol State Forest mountain bike trails vary season to season based on the logging activities, and that that’s just how it is.

    The US government can use, or lease to private companies, our National Forest lands. That’s just how it is. For those of us who like mountain biking, it’s a shitty tenuousness: make it a national park or wilderness and the trails get closed to bikers. Keep it national forest and ride across logging and mineral extraction operations. That’s it, life in our banana republic.

    Imagine how much land we could buy the mineral rights to for the price of a bomber, a jet fighter, a battleship, or all the shit we make dedicated to killing poor sonsabitches all over this globe.

    Imagine if all our armed forces in 150 countries were pulled back, we let the thousands of miles of oceans defend us, and the soldiers were put to work making trails and riding the dirt. “US leads the world in exporting goodwill from our happy biking culture, muthafuckas.”

    Keep dreamin, I guess.

  9. Danimal, as long as there are people in this world committed to killing us simply because we exist, it ain’t gonna happen.

  10. …maybe there wouldn’t be so many “…people in this world committed to killing us simply because we exist…” if we hadn’t spent so many years of fucking with their existence as ‘big daddy #1’ trying to control their economies & resources for our own benefit under the guise of “…y’alls friendly neighbor…”

    …perhaps with real forethought, we’d have realized that certain commodities might ultimately be expended over time & therefor it would have been wise to have developed alternatives well before there was a need to muscle in on dwindling resources…

    …but then again, we’re only human & we’re known as being a selfish & greedy species…

  11. Reason on Fracking:

    I grew up in Pittsburgh and spend tons of time riding all over Western PA. I’ve raced in ridden in St. Marys, Warren, and the State Championship race in 1990(?) at the Kinzua dam. I would hate to see anything negative happen to that area…

    That said, I think the anti-fracking hype is exactly that. Every form of energy generation has its problems. Relatively speaking, natural gas drilling is a helluva lot less impactfull than the economically viable alternatives of energy generation (e.g., coal). Sure, it’s really easy to pot shots at natural gas drilling, and it’ll get you lots of popularity points and back slapping with the local coffee shop crowd. I’d love to see the people taking pot shots come up with a viable alternative to gas drilling which generates as many BTUs with less risk.

    BTW – If it’s not raining, I’m heading up to Raystown to ride tomorrow…prolly pass a few gas wells, too…


  12. A buddy and I were hoping to go thrash Raystown tomorrow as well but the weather doesn’t appear to be working in our favor. I was there a few weeks ago and it was perfect! How good is the trail post rain? (I would imagine it drains well.)

  13. @09-FFF you gotta be kidding, just sand and water? they are pumping shit down there with names that would fill up a scrabble board. anti-coagulant this, viscosity inhibitor that…you get my point.

    i asked an expert what the deal was with this shortly after watching Gasland. he said for the most part fracking was no biggie, they have been doing it for ages in texas to get at depleted oil wells, but in the the gold rush that is shale gas around PA (among other places), there are loads of rookies who are just blasting away with little regard and experience. that’s how you get people with groundwater that can be lit on fire after a nearby well gets fracked.

  14. @baskuul – the trails at raystown drain extremely well…the day after a big soaker, you’ll only hit a few feet of trail in the whole joint that are wet. That said, it looks like tomorrow will be a washout…weather channel’s saying high of 48F with 15-20 mph winds and periods of rain all day. I’ll probably stay down in Maryland and maybe try to get a couple of hours in on the road with the ol’ fenders.

    Next weekend the leaves will probably be just about peak…definitely going to try to make it then…

  15. Now if only people would try to use a lot less energy. After all, that is what is driving the rape of the earth.

    In one thread we have the anger about fracking with people talking about driving a couple hundred miles to ride their bike in the woods. Oh yeah. It makes so much sense.

  16. MoTown— tsk tsk, there you go, gettin’ all factual and shit, potentially distracting sheeple from the glossy spectacle now showing on their smart ™ phone as they putt along in bumper-to-bumper traffic in their three-ton SUVs.

  17. In general I usually try to be cognizant of the energy I use, only because it tends to be cheaper.

    As for environmentalist hype, it’s all driven by people with ulterior motives. And equating driving to some nice mountain bike trails to rape is over a bit over the top even for the greenie whack job crowd.


  18. All comments about mineral right are correct. My boss bought a house in coal country PA and he owns the lot, but if coal company (who owns mineral rights under lot) determine they need to mine under it, they pay him 25% of property value to access their mineral right under fed law. This is where “big business” is always one step ahead of the fed on law making and land protection. I am disappointed in decision as many thousands of acres are fucked with nasty carcinogenic “fracking” fluids, that will leech into water stystem.

  19. Mike Z says: In the Allegheny National Forest, the subsurface rights are privately held, and the subsurface owner has a constitutional right to their property, no law can be passed to prevent this.

    Well the second part of that statement just plain isn’t true. Laws are passed all the time that regulate in some fashion our property rights, and the constitution doesn’t say otherwise.

    And as for NEPA “locking up all development” on the Allegheny NF, yeah right. You don’t have to be a NEPA lawyer to look out your window and see development of all kinds on our National Forests, but I happen to actually be a NEPA lawyer, and can tell you that NEPA might be a pain in the butt for people who want to make money on public lands, but it has nowhere near the power you ascribe to it.

  20. We have one planet people… One.

    The zealous pursuit of profit, and our addiction to cheap, dirty energy are killing us.

    No more 8 mpg SUVs for carting kids to school. No more living in the desert and running your AC at 72 degrees all day. No more disposable plastic crap. No more wars.

    Let me say it again.

    One. Fucking. Planet.

  21. You’re all idiots. Don’t you realize when Perry gets elected, he’ll get Bachmann to be his VP and then they’ll start the mother of all holy wars in the middle east whereby the one and only lord Jesus Christ will be ushered back upon his throne, and there will be 1000 years of Death, Famine and all that from the 4 Horsmen of the Apocalypse and blah-dee-blah-blah…?

    Don’t you guys know anything?


  22. @gypsy…I’ll be forty one years old this year.

    When I was about 6, I remember hearing about a book some really smart guy wrote called “the population bomb” on TV. As humans, we had over run the resources of the planet. Everyone in Africa and India was going to die. Experts had looked at the data and the conclusions were crystal clear: Humans had over run the resources of the planet. Immediate actions (such as government enforced limits on birth) were needed to prevent disaster. It was all just a matter of time…

    When is was about 8 years old, I remember that the huge hype was global cooling. I remember not being able to sleep at night after watching an episode of “in search of” where Leonard Nimoy talked for a half hour about how all the best scientists “knew” that we were in for an ice age, and it was just a matter of time.

    I remember being a kid in the 80s, hearing about how acid rain was going to turn the Europe and most of the country into a wasteland. We were all doomed, immediate measures were needed. It was just a matter of time…

    I remember being in high school in the late 80s, when the global warming fear mongering first ebbed to feverish. After a particularly bad heat wave in Pittsburgh when temperatures were running 95-98 for almost 2 weeks, no one could shut up about it. Unless we did something immediate and drastic, disaster could not be averted. Species were going to become extinct, New Orleans was going to drown, millions would die. It was just a matter of time.

    I remember being in college and being a young adult. Every couple of months or so I read about the latest/greatest computer model using the most powerful data analysis tools available, climatologists had concluded that rapid, grossly apparent changes in temperature were going to occur all over the world. The global temperature trend was a “hockey stick” and we were beginning the section of most rapid temperature change, and it was going to be bad, really soon, too. It was all just a matte of time.

    Over my adult life, I’ve become aware of a few things.

    1. Confirmation bias is real and insidious. Information proffered by people trying to sell books, establish their own fame, or fund their next research project is usually bullshit.

    2. Fabricating and exploiting crises is the lifeblood of politicians. When people are scared, that’s when they hand over their money and power. If you’re going to get people to agree to invade a foreign country, hand billions of taxpayer money to bail out wall street idiots from the messes they created, or that everyone needs to buy $4 light bulbs, there’s only 1 way to do it: Make up a huge bullshit story where everyone is going to suffer immensely and keep repeating it until you get your way. If you can get the scientists on board to help you out (e.g., by making sure plenty of research money is available as long as their conclusions go your way – see #1, above), that’s friggin’ awesome…

    3. The popular media is full of schmucks who are too lazy to actually research anything. And why bother when you can just repeat the releases that the established political class feeds you (see #2 above)? After all, what they really want is for people to pay attention so they can sell more advertising….and when people are all frothed up by the latest hype, they pay attention…

    Pardon me, but I concluded a long time ago that it’s all bullshit.

    Be a good citizen, don’t litter, be nice to the people you meet, and don’t be wasteful. It’s basic decency and should be a cornerstone of every adult’s behavior.

    As for the hype, it’s all just like Flavor Flav said.


  23. Hurt Boovis thinks on a time scale where a trip to Dairy Queen for his favorite milk-bacteria treat is the Phanerozoic.

  24. Hey Burt,

    Population is still a bomb. Ask anyone who is trying to preserve any of the various threatened/endangered species or any meaningful bit of wild land. Humans will gradually fuck every other living thing because when it comes to setting aside a chunk of ground or feeding human mouths, we elect to feed people. It takes a cold hearted motherfucker, such as yours truly, to suggest that yes, we ought to save animal species- especially keystone species (I’m looking at you, Bengal/Javan/Siberian tiger) and let humans be prohibited from settling/farming an area, even if it costs lives. Most people say, “oh, no, that’s wrong!” though, and they always will, so eventually this planet will just be a giant city and the farms needed to feed it. If you want to see a tiger (or any of the tens of thousands of other extinct/endangered animal species) you can look them up on your computer. Fuck.

    Population is still a bomb. The only reason this planet supports 7 billion of us (that’s right, it happened this year) is because we grow our plants with solar energy that has been stored underground for the last 100-400 million years. No matter how you swing it, oil is a non-renewable resource and you have to be one hell of a techno-triumphalist to think that we are going to develop something that adequately replaces it. Since oil powers modern ag, and since we use about 3 calories on machinery/fertilizer/transport for every calorie we get out, when the oil runs out, humans are fucked. We might not go extinct, but we’ll have to drop back a peg or three in population. The sad part is that, as we convulse and contract toward that new mark, we might just off ourselves in the process. Sadder still is that when we return to the hunt/grow societies, we may not have anything left to hunt, and very little unpolluted land to grow on. Worst, no one will give a shit about bikes or bike blogs because they’ll be preoccupied with staying alive.

    But, we’ll all be dead, so fuck it. Right?

    Debbie Downer

  25. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Good thread! My tires got muddy yesterday so I don’t give a fuck. Haven’t had muddy tires in a looooong time.

    And all this other shit? Welcome to the homogocene, folks. Prokaryotes, super-roaches and humans. Maybe. The weather will likely be terrible to boot.

  26. I hate to say it but I agree with Burt(normally I think he’s a douche).

    Environmentalists have been screaming too loud for too long about a whole list of things that did not pan out.

    They cried wolf one too many times for me.

    And from what I’ve read Fracking is not a big deal. Especially if the added energy will allow us to close old time coal plants.

  27. Mr. Hoovis, Not to belabor a point, but people in Africa and India ARE dying by the oil tanker load. Famine, AIDS, Malaria… And let’s not forget the people dying in the wars being waged over access to resources. In my humble hippie-boy opinion, your ideas about the environmental movement aren’t even your ideas. They’ve been given to you by a billion dollar a year media campaign run by the oil companies.

  28. @TripleF – Of course I’m a douche. Duh….reference my blog…!

    @Gypsy – the problems in Africa and India are political and geopolitical…and the reality that, except for a few select areas (mostly places impacted by war), things in both Africa are better than they’ve ever been.

    Of course, if you want to be all gloom and doom, by all means…


  29. @burt.hoovis: Brother, you’re in the big river in Egypt.

    There is incontrovertible evidence of climate change. Full stop.

    As for your opinion on Africa, well, now how can I put this politely? OK, I think I know. Tell me how you manage to type such crap with your head so firmly in the warm and fuzzy zone up your arse?

  30. There’s so much bull-shit about climate change that you need a supercomputer and a team of mathematicians to keep it all straight.

    It’s such a cluster-fuck that if you believe firmly either way you’re an idiot.

    We need to remove politics from the equation and let science rule.

  31. Dude, Hoovis–

    Lookit up. Few scientists signed on to the so-called “global cooling” scare, but by 1980 many were awakening to global warming. The only reason global cooling is talked about now is because it fits into the petro-industry’s narrative that everything is “debatable” and thus there is no call to do anything about global warming.

    Your next example, acid rain, was and is a problem that is thankfully being reduced greatly by, yes that is right, REGULATION. Go to a country that doesn’t regulate its coal plants and look at their trees.

    You forgot to bitch about the ozone hole scare so I’ll help you out. Thing is, it’s another example of government regulation. There’s been a near global elimination of HCFC’s and the hole, although grossly large and the source of skin cancers in the southern latitudes especially, is healing.

    Global warming causing species to become extinct: yep, it’s happening right on schedule. New Orleans drowning? Umm. . . . Grossly apparent changes in temperature . . . I guess you mean the 7F changes in the arctic? Dude, it is happening and again, lookit up, the hockey stick is real. Ocean acidification is real. Methane plumes from melting tundra: real. Forests dying of beetles: real. Malaria moving north: real. Just read the goddamn science that is coming out in volumes.

    The shit is going to fall on us.

  32. The *idea* that we can’t really know what’s happening with climate change is an idea created by the fossil fuel industry. You claim to be a free thinker and not under the sway of left wing spin, but what you really are is a brain washed sheep that has been tricked into believing you are some kind of rugged individualist. You are not thinking for yourself, you are buying into a mindset created by the the PR engines of the most powerful groups in the history of our planet.

  33. We could bluster and cross link here all fucking night long.

    Climate change is the ultimate “he said/she said” situation.

    It’s been politicized by both sides.

    Again. We need to remove politics from the equation and let science rule.

  34. …no matter HOW & no matter WHY the environment is changing, we as a species, the species that has the largest impact on this planet, obviously need to wake the fuck up regarding overpopulation…

    …food, famine & fresh water issues ARE real, right now, no matter what you think of the state of our constantly changing environment…whatever argument or whatever side you take in the environmental debate, the truth is, once again, food, famine & the issue of fresh clean water are real, right now & will only be more so in the future…

    …whether it’s a lack of basic staples (& yes, in africa, politics is often the case) or here where i doubt any of ‘us’ ever go hungry, how much energy & what kind of energy goes into producing what we generate, we have something of great importance to address…

    …it’s gonna come down to harsh reality & basic education as regards overpopulation & a finite amount of foodstuffs is a good start no matter how much it affects your ‘warm & fuzzy’ feelings…

    …in simplistic terms, if we have 10 people living on the 10 beans we can grow a day & our projection for the future is that we can’t grow more than maybe 12 beans at a time, then it doesn’t make sense to procreate to the point of there being 15 people trying to live on those same 10 or 12 beans…

    …whether you wanna have a buncha kids just ‘cuz you love kids & ‘that’s how your heritage has always been’ or if it’s a case of you can get a cow as a dowry for every daughter to supplement your old age, so you keep pumping out more kids, it doesn’t matter…at some point, the warm & fuzzys have to be put aside & the reality of overpopulation & it’s attendant concerns needs be addressed…

    …i don’t profess to have the answers but it seems to me that certain issues need to be looked at very carefully with the emotions put aside…

  35. The take away point for me is this – you cannot continually move anything around in a closed and finite system such as our planet without expecting repercussions. Whether it be CO2 or simply reallocating water in the American south west. What you take from one place you necessarily remove from another. Now, you cannot argue that airborne pollutants (CO2 and/or others) are without effect. It has go to somewhere. Yes, it may be dispersed across a seemingly endless atmosphere. But it is not endless. And there is no reason to dismiss the potential heat-trapping effects of the “greenhouse gases” as a “scam” or “panic” or “over-reaction.” It doesn’t matter if the scientific community (pick your boogieman) got it all wrong once before. I crashed my bike in a corner once. But it does not follow that I cannot correctly orientate my way through a series of corners on a bicycle tomorrow. The earth may be warming, and that warming may affect ocean ice, and that ocean ice, when turned into water, has to go somewhere. OK, enough.

  36. hi, i’m really enjoying this thread. I’ve been a big fan of drunkcyclist for awhile and have always wondered why there isn’t more posted, or at least alluded to, about climate change since the southwest is and will be so vulnerable to its effects. DC contributors and readers in other regions also must be witnessing the effects of extreme/less predictable weather. yes, these natural disasters seem circumstantial proof of climate change, but with more and more one in a hundred year events happening over decades, for example, it really is not. and it’s not just in North America. the rest of the world is slowly taking action. we in the US and Canada (at least with the tar sands) are going backwards. not to litter the fray with seemingly partisan links, but i think this is a good one.

    remember, climate scientists can only make claims based on peer-reviewed studies and these scientist rarely have any kind of voice in the mass media “dialogue.” if you asked them to speculate what they really see in store for the planet, it would me much worse. but what we see in the mass media are people with the least information with the most cash/power/influence get the greatest voice. and even our most respected publications, ny times, wash post, etc., are reluctant to truly commit to reporting on what is happening. also think about the disappointing obama administration where the mere utterance of climate change is anathema, viewed as completely out of sync with the ultimate goal of reelection. looking forward to hearing what people think of Joe Romm.

  37. Hoovis, a coupla things:

    First, if you don’t think global warming is happening, then why do you want a 0.2 C/decade handicap in our bet? That adds up to a 2 C increase over a century, which is enough to dramatically change life on earth, even for humans. So what gives?

    Second, if you had made this bet at any point in the last 30 years you would have lost every time. Do you think the earth is going to start cooling?

    Just trying to figure you out.

  38. @Hurben: Don’t hold your breath on SA doing the right thing in the long term. They have bowed to public pressure and have appointed a Commission of Enquiry (remember those from the old regime..) Where there are oil companies and politicians there will be bribery and corruption.
    Fracking in the Karoo is an interesting one; most of the residents (and they are pretty thin on the ground) do not support the current regime. The gains from the gas are said to be short term, about ten years and will not benefit the locals. The area is semi-desert and relies solely on groundwater which will be polluted by the fracking and gas extraction processes.

    One only has to look at what Shell did in Nigeria. I am worried that it will happen here.

    On the other hand, the opposition to the fracking is, in a nutshell, “silly”. Naughty bumper sticker saying “Frack Shell”. Wow, I can imagine them crapping themselves.And the Gaslands movie…..
    In Nigeria, Shell took notice once opposition became violent (but only after they had arranged for Ken Saro Wiwa to be hanged. Yes.)

    Our government is making headway on more sustainable energy sources (wind and solar) which is commendable.

    @ Big Jonny It’s great to have this kind of topic on DC. Dankie Groot Jannie (I’m preparing you for SS Worlds ;)

  39. anyone who takes the Hurt Boobcephalapod bet will almost certainly win

    I suggest you all get in while the getting in is good. Is there risk that you could lose? Yes, but probably less than 1 in 20. Go people go.

  40. Corporations serve themselves, which explains the big-picture, anti-climate change agenda neatly.

    So lt’s look at the industries that stand to lose:

    1) Agriculture. From what I see, there a broad belief that Technology Will Save Us. Also, mega-corporate agribusiness is the only game in town, so no matter how shitty it gets, they still win. I predict the meat industry will collapse at some point, it seems the least sustainable.

    2) Moving well down the list, ski resorts. Through acquisitions and mergers, this industry has come to be dominated by corporations “holding” upwards of a dozen and sometimes more resorts across several regional markets. (Squaw Vally, the unethical bully of Lake Tahoe, just bought Alpine Meadows this week, the coolest north shore resort… very sad news.) They don’t make much noise about it, but these companies stand to lose very directly if average temperatures rise much at all. 20-year models that I’ve seen suggest a trend towards “shorter seasons,” that is, on average, later snowfall and earlier melt. This industry is flat right now, with almost no new lift construction anywhere in the U.S. For instance, Summit at Snoqualmie (CNL Holdings out of Florida USA) downgraded the Mt. Hyak detachable quad lift to a fixed-grip triple they already owned. We’ve seen Tamarack (Idaho), the first completely new ski resort in decades, fail and cease operating. The largest resort in North American, Whistler/Blackcomb, is in receivership despite hosting the 2010 Winter Olympics.

    So when the energy industry or anyone else tells you that climate change “is just a theory,” that carries about as much weight as Republican presidential candidates’ positions on evolution— totally and utterly based in faith, not fact.

    Hear that tinkling sound? It’s the sound of our urine falling on our children’s heads.

  41. So, my wife just left her job at the Center for Oceanic Atmospheric Studies, at FSU. She was surrounded by meteorological scientists all day every weekday. I asked once what their take was on global warming. The overall consensus there was that the planet operates om a cyclical pattern. She’s(Earth, not my wife)had multiple hot and cold cycles. Now, I don’t claim to be an expert, nor do I claim to have a clear handle on all of the data available. So yeah, it’s getting hotter, but who says it won’t cool again, as it has already done, time and again?

  42. …prob’ly right, bud…but it might be in 200 years & florida & a lotta low coastal cities might be long gone…

    …i’ve always believed exactly what those scientists profess but at the same time i firmly believe ‘our’ activities add to the mix in ways that are only now being considered…

    …you don’t own oceanfront property do ya ???…

  43. And she only picked up on part of the story. Yes there are cycles, but what is a problem is that the current warming actually goes against what many of the cycles should be driving. Also, working in the same office as climatologists does not mean you understand climatology, and just because something goes against your beliefs and desire for something to be wrong, doesn’t mean it is. I know it’s really hard to believe, but you don’t know more than the climate scientists actually studying the issue.

  44. E – Yeah, so? My point is that the doomsdayers who are screaming “we’re all going to die, somebody do something” are wrong. What’s more, the trend currently looks as if it might actually be going down.

    I’m also noting that the folks who are screaming about what a fool I am are not taking the bet. Not that I expected anyone too. It’s much easier to simply say someone is wrong than to actually put some skin in the game.


  45. BGW – Nope, no oceanfront property. I’m a real estate appraiser, so all I do is break folks hearts when I tell them it’s not worth the materials they used to build it.

    Wade – Thanks for the link. That’s the kind of response I was looking for.

    El Jefe – I agree that it’s possible that we only got part of the story, and I only offered it up as another piece to the conversation. I believe as many, that human practices accelerate the damage to the planet. As someone else already stated, that’s the nature of overpopulation. I was looking to see if anyone else had come across this cyclical viewpoint from a non-media source. As for working in a climatology office not making you a climatologist, well, I’m not talking about a a mail girl, a custodian, or a runner. She worked with the director of the dept, and it’s pretty hard to misinterpret open mocking of the doomsayers. I, nor she, have our heads in the sand. We just don’t jump to the latest trend of folks screaming extreme theories, in either direction. That’s why I asked what the viewpoint in the department was, at that time. I figured that it may not be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but it certainly may carry as much weight as what I read over at, by a bunch of folks with cute, anonymous nicknames, myself included.

  46. That’s your rejoinder? “Yeah so?” Dude you are on one hand saying global warming isn’t happening and then offering a bet in which, if it happens, you win. The chickenshit here is you.

    If you think the trend is going down, put your bet there. If you think it’s flat, put your bet there. I am not a climate scientist but most of them think it’s going up, and that is, after all, what the data show as well.

    A much more fun and meaningful bet would be one that rolled over every year. Warmer than last year? I win. Cooler? You win. It’s gonna vary a little so that will keep it interesting — this year was particularly hot so it may actually cool next year. Commit to five years running, 500 a year. See if Big Jonny will hold the cash for us and distribute to the winner.

  47. Yep.

    Bluster and cross links.

    Climate change is the cluster-fuck of our age. Once “hockey stick” gets mentioned it all turns full retard. Would be nice to be able to trust someone over this matter. That will never happen.

  48. Triple, how about climate scientists? You know the people that actually study the issue? If you cut out all of the chaff from each side, and just look at the science (which means ruling out the industry shills S. Fred Singer and Patrick Michaels), it is nearly universal. Climate change is happening, and a good portion of it is caused by us. Why is that so hard to get?

    Start here:

  49. no no no el jefe, Rick Perry said climate scientists are coming forward all the time disputing the overwhelming evidence. time to renew your fox news subscription and get clued in.

  50. @Barry, that’s right. I forgot. Duh. Evolution is a “theory that is ‘out there'” (Yes, he said that.) Governor Goodhair/”I’m not the slickest canditate” (Again, he said that)/Mr. D for Diploma at Texas A&M (and this was long before A&M built a reputation as a Tier 1 science school), has his operatives on the case…

  51. …that old saw – “anyone can grow up & be the president of the united states” that used to speak of opportunity, has never been scarier than it is these days…

  52. @E – I’ll try to make this clear for you:

    When a man is offered a bet, the standard practice is to either take said bet or decline to take said bet.

    Big homos (like AfrikaShingle) talk all tough and then don’t do shit.

    Pussies talk about how the bet ought to be changed in the hopes that no one will notice that their vagina is hanging out.

    Either sack up and take the ‘NMT 0.1 degree temperature raise in a 13-moth rolling average as measured by the NOAA Satellite data’ bet offered or or STFU…

    This thread is getting very tiresome, so I’ll keep an eye on the old e-mail to see if you grow a pair.

    Have a great day.


  53. Hoovis, I believe the climate is warming and I believe it will warm 2C in the next century. Judging from the terms of your bet, you seem to believe the very same thing. Why you angrily insist on a bet that gives you a 2C/century handicap when the bet is supposed to be about whether the climate is warming at all is bizarre.

    It’s like me insisting the Yankees will never win another game, and then challenging you to a bet that they will win fewer than 70 percent of their games next year in order to prove it. Then calling you names when you don’t take the bet. Honestly, it’s weird.

    So the problem with your bet is that it does not reflect your stated opinions. (See your comment @25, that there is no global warming, it’s all hype and bullshit generated by people with ulterior motives.) (Oh and also that basic decency should be a cornerstone of every adult’s behavior).

    I proposed the other bet because it is easier to enforce (we don’t have to wait five years) and it was tailored to your apparent belief that the earth is not warming — a belief you are obviously unwilling to back up with your cash.

    You’re a strange dude.

  54. Burt = yawn. Doood is too dumb to realize that a) he’s talking out his ass, and b) the bet he proposed goes against his claimed beliefs. E, it’s not worth arguing with the village idiot.

  55. All I know is that the heat finally broke this weekend in Florida and Saturday was so fucking beautiful and the Breeze from Up North so fresh and sweet that I did this: I DIDN’T RIDE MY BIKE. HAR! That’s right, you “ballers”, this old mother fucker who (as near as I can tell) rides about x times the alleged miles you typists put in each week just spent the weekend wandering around the trailer park with a beer in my hand and a couple illegal (for me) downers in my system laughing and goofing off and trying to piss everybody off to no avail. Try it sometime. yer buddy tj

  56. The heat broke in TX last week. After 90 days over 100°F this summer, I can finally start a ride sometime later than dawn-o-clock. Highs in the low 90’s, lows in the 60’s. Fuck yea, I spent some time riding, and some time sitting on my porch with a beer… IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY, NOT SWEATING MY ASS OFF.

  57. Mikey, fuck La Nina. That’s one reason we’ve had such a brutal summer. Long-term forecast don’t have things improving any time soon. We need rain. Send some my way…

  58. it seems the most important issues currently and into the short term and long term future are climate change, resource depletion, economic stability and food security and all are related. obviously we’re experiencing enormous climate variability. the days of easy oil in our petroleum driven economy are over. our economy seems unlikely to recover anytime soon. food prices are rising worldwide and driving revolutions and starvation. my opinion has been greatly influenced by James Howard Kunstler, Elizabeth Kolbert, Vaclav Smil, James Hansen, and David Orr and others. Check them all out. And even if you don’t buy into climate change, you have to buy into the mitigation of toxins and pollutants in our environment and environmental stewardship. and something to note, even if we shut the system down right now, the earth would continue to suffer the consequences of man made climate change. Again, loving all the of passion expressed here! don’t fuck la nina though, because she’s just going to fuck you!

  59. …burt – why do you always ‘thank’ yourself at the end of your posts ???…

  60. @Jefe— you, sir, may fuck la nina, I shall in turn glissade upon her silky climes fifty or sixty day before May. I’m thinking of maybe stepping up to a hundred-plus miles o’ skate. I’ll be at Vail in March, ain’t that down yer way? Keep the waxy side down, brother.

  61. PS— temps in the low 50s and pissing rain all day today… and yes, I was out in it.

  62. Vail’s about an 18hr drive… so not really my way much (central TX). March, it’ll just be hitting spring here. Great riding weather. I’ll likely head out to the Big Bend region for some desert riding/hiking.

  63. @burt.hoovis Thank you. Glad to be a mirror for you and I must admit to being slightly amused that I got to yank your chain.
    Oh, did you actually offer a bet?
    Thanks again for the retard amusement, just remember not to believe any of it. OK?

  64. On a serious note – they have to build these clay lined retention ponds for the frack water. I hear the water is salinated, briney, sulfurous. When the inspectors aren’t there occasionally they forget(?!) to run the frack water into the ponds and shoot it all into fresh streams. There are billboards all over the state talking about how great this natural gas is for PA. It’s only great for politicians pockets and egos. Surface water now includes chemicals from deep within the earth that it never had in it before. How cool is that shit? I’m glad I only drink beer and liquor. So lucky that my bike is powered by natural grass.

  65. Is this idiotic thread still going on ?

    It’s like listening to a Mormon and a Muslim argue. Totally fucking pointless posturing all backed up by bull-shit. Everyone is in a fucking choir on this subject.

    Here ya go. Let’s end this now.

  66. Triple, I posted a link to a group that keeps politics out of it, and just talks about the science. That’s what you said you wanted. No one else is responsible for what you don’t know or refuse to accept.

    Besides, we’ve moved on to talk of the weather and skiing.

    Turtle power, brother.

  67. although this discussion is ending on this thread, it is definitely a discussion that shouldn’t end. and in the tradition of some of the other contributors/posters here, i feel it is necessary to also post an absurdist, contrarian video to hopefully catalyze each cyclist’s quest for deeper understanding of the imminent apocalypse that awaits us if we insist on stubbornly trying to bullshit climate change away:

  68. This is just a temporary stop on the way to nuclear energy. Barring a world wide shift in energy consumption, this is the future we live in. Remember, the largest consumers of energy are industry. No technology is safe. It’s science, and science is only true until proven fallible. Concrete has a life span of (at most) 100 years. Ground water contamination may be limited for now. However, like all human ideas, the regulations of fracking are on a human time scale. Geologically, this is a disaster.

  69. Mr. rogbie speaks sense… my concern is that if there’s enough ignorance and fear, we’ll pass through a Coal Age on the way to nukular, and that too will be yet another global environmental disaster.

  70. …bottom line – unless richard branson is gonna fly you through space to accommodations you’ve booked on another planet, you’re gonna have to deal with whatever climate changes & conditions are in the works here on earth…

    …hot, cold, filthy air, dirty water, a fight for food, it ain’t gonna be pretty unless there is understanding & cooperation on a level that’s never been seen before…

    …doesn’t matter who wins the argument on these pages, none of us are gonna win in the end if the results of the occurring problems, no matter what’s creating them, continue to exacerbate…


    …non sequitur…alberto fucking cuntador was pedaling a bicycle within a dozen miles of my domicile, just north of sf today & that bitch is lucky i didn’t know about it earlier…prob’ly some promo deal-y…

    …i wouldn’t have thrown a piece of cheap steak ‘at’ him, ‘cuz that’s assault but i would have found a way to throw it in front of his wheel…just to, ahhh, ‘share the love’ !!!…

    …fuck you, ‘berto & your ‘plans’ for the 2012 season…

  71. Just water and sand? UMMM, no…. Ronald Bailey’s article is misleading, not surprising since he is an oil/gas industry hack. 99.9% water and sand, maybe, but when you are talking about 1-8 million gallons of water per frack, how much is .1% chemicals? some estimates are between 80 and 300 tons. there is also a difference between traditional and horizontal fracking that should be considered. Also, how safe is the waste water produced from fracking? would you drink it straight from the holding pond? also consider that only 50% of the water used is recovered.