You can draw a line in the sand across which we have the testimony of George Hincapie on one side and all that which came before hand on the other. Greg Lemond, Betsy and Frankie Andreu, David Walsh, Emma O’Reilly, Filippo Simeoni, all were attacked on the basis of character. It was said they are liars. It was said they are in it for the money. It was said they were simply jealous.
George Hincapie’s character is above reproach in this instance. He has not denied doping at length in the past. He has not been through a disastrous arbitration proceedings regarding doping accusations. He is not writing a book. There is no money interest at issue. Therefore his testimony cannot be likewise impugned.
George Hincapie, one of Lance Armstrong’s closest friends during their time together at the U.S. Postal Service and Discovery Channel teams and the only member of all seven of Armstrong’s Tour de France-winning squads, testified before a federal grand jury that he and Armstrong had supplied one another with EPO and testosterone, CBS News reported Friday afternoon.
It will be interesting to see how Lance Armstrong positions himself in regards to these latest allegations next week.
Boom does the dynamite.by
Can’t you see Big Jonny, they’re all lying except Lance. All dozens and dozens of them. Lance Armstrong is a liar, a fraud, a thug, a con artist, a whore and a big bag of santorum.
Hell effin yeah!
If this is possibly the final nail in the coffin, can we now fast forward to the good part? Or will they drag this out for another decade…….
Handsome Jorge never spoke to CBS about his testimony before the FDA Grand Jury, so there’s either a leak at the FDA, or some CBS producer is on the soup line this morning.
I know this is a cycling site, and this is important to all of us, but I just need to make the point that whenever a newspaper leads with: “…is the focus of a federal investigation into doping in cycling…”
And yet we have yet to see any federal investigations into the financial institutions and practices that helped create the Great Recession, put millions of people out of work, and have substantially widened the gaps between the super-rich and everyone else…and is still shaking out.
We’ve got our priorities straight.
I’m with MM, I don’t doubt that Lance doped but it would be illegal for George to discuss a grand jury testimony with anyone. That being said, even if George were to confirm this story the other two would still be butt nuggets, jusy sayin.
Smoke and Mirrors, Danimal. With all the focus on 165 pound cyclists, what about 600 pound NFL linemen? What about Hockey players? Hell, those guys in NASCAR are probably into some stuff we never even heard of yet. But count on the RIGHT hand to keep the left hand confused.
I see a lot of anger and resentment aimed at Lance. I don’t know why. I never met the guy, but a lot of people call him names and seem eager to see him fall. It makes me sad. If even the Nice Boys like George and Tyler were doing it, what do you expect from a Monster like Armstrong?
A lot of things that go on sicken me, hypocrisy being one of my favorites. But is it hypocrisy to Lie Professionally? These guys were getting paid to do these drugs and crank those pedals faster than we mortals ever will. Lying about Drugs was part of the job. I’m not saying it Was Right. Hell, folks, anything having to do with Fat Cash is going to involve lying and cheating and being a whore. That’s why although I understand Danimal’s post I also find it disingenuous. It is like asking the Fox to apologize for what happened in the Hen House last night. He will tell you anything you want to hear while looking over your shoulder for another chicken farm.
But listen, Danimal, anytime you are ready to storm Washington with torches and pitchforks I’m there.
Somehow I think if Lance didn’t order his team to the front to take George out of yellow when he was with HTC at the tour , maybe the GJ testomony would be a bit different without the resentment ! Lance fucked alot of wives , and fucked over alot of friends . He will pay for that and I’m just fuckin sayin …………
Hi, I just want everyone out there to know that I have developed a fool-proof PED test, but the UCI is keeping it under wraps for fear of alienating fans. My test (The Podium Test (TM)) requires only that the UCI provide a multi-tiered awards podium at each event. After the conclusion of the race, the top 3 racers stand on the podium and wait to receive a trophy. Any athlete witnessed placing both feet on the previous described ‘podium’ has tested positive for PEDs.
Why do we care about this again? The irresistible urge to see Armstrong punished is a little obsessive. It’s not like he beat anyone who was racing clean. What is gained by this whole thing?
Eddie doped an got caught multiple times…. Why do you love him and hate lance…. Its a double standard.
The legends of the sport ALL doped, the poster on your wall of that great moment in cycling …. Guess what… That guy is doped to the gills.
EDDIE DONT LIE !!!!!!!!!!
Merckx is an asshole too…..just sayin’.
…i think george looks at guys like tyler & floyd, guys he’s known & raced with & against & fully understands why they initially denied everything, only to later turn & make the admission & then speak out against lance…
…i think george looks at his old pal lance & fully understands why he’s vehemently denying everything but i’ll bet george, deep in his heart, has a hard time with the nasty vitriol that ‘team-legal-lance’ attacks the credibility of so many people who were directly involved…
…george knows damn well those individuals aren’t what they’re made out to be by ‘team-legal-lance’…
…on top of that, i’ll bet the incentive of dealing with a grand jury is bringing the severity of the situation home to george…
…frankie & betsy andreu aren’t thugs, emma o’reilly isn’t a thug & despite what anyone thinks about them, tyler hamilton & floyd landis aren’t thugs…
…with their continued insistence, ‘team legal lance’ is about to destroy not the credibility of others but the ‘good’ armstrong has created & ultimately, the longer they go on, the more supporters he’ll lose…
…at some point, they need to stop acting like thugs, stop denying & consider damage control…that kinda what floyd & tyler did…
Eddy Merckx is a Drunk Cyclist.
…as regards lance’s tweet “…20+ year career. 500 drug controls worldwide, in and out of competition. Never a failed test. I rest my case.”…
…no sir, you don’t get to “rest your case”…you case is just getting warmed up…THAT is pretty fucking obvious…
…personally, mr armstrong, i’ve been on of your biggest supporters on this site because i believed you could come clean & still have a good legacy…
…at this point, i see your legal team as pissing on the shallow grave they’re digging for you & i fully believe it’s with your direction…
…that is fucking sad…
It would seem for someone the end HAS come today.
Eddy didn’t lie? So people aren’t upset about doping, their upset about lying about doping?
I’m still waiting to hear the name of a cycling legend that didn’t dope.
no more of those vapid ‘just sayin’s.. please
Danimal, i’m with ya on this one. As a taxpayer w/ a 6 year old I’d rather see the FDA working w/ the DEA on a certain neighboring country’s drug war than airing a professional sport’s dirty laundry.
Isn’t the crux of the case that said athletes were doping on (at least some of) the government’s dime?
ALL HAIL KING GEORGE
Lance A.=Pete Rose/Barry Bonds/Roger Clemmons; egomaniacs that lied to the end and forever tarnished their hall of fame records History shows, Man The Fuck UP and you will be forgiven.
Again, name a cycling legend that didn’t dope.
watch the money. it will be interesting to see how long it takes for Nike and Armstrong’s other big cash cows to bail on him. i guarantee they wont go down on a sinking ship.
Lemond? You believe Lemond didn’t use ANY PEDs in his cycling career. Another cycling miracle where the clean American won multiple tours against a doped up field. If Lemond beat a dirty field clean then why couldn’t have Lance done the same thing?
Really looking forward to 60 minutes, supposedly they have got a year’s worth of research going into this program and they promise it will be their best yet.
And yes Lemond was clean.
All of these latest allegations seem to have something to do with Grand Jury testimony. It would be interesting to hear just what threats the prosecution made against these guys… just remember, that in any courtroom, there are always deals, and it is not just “the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth” ( that only existed in Perry Mason !).
Lance has done a lot of good, there are no positive tests, nothing to see here, move on !
If they have already teased with Hamilton and the bombshell of George Hincapie, then what could they possibly have left for Sunday that is greater than the sum of what we know? Why would the government spend so much time and energy on this? I think that this goes far deeper than sporting fraud and that the ultimate collapse will involve Livestrong as part of this fraudulent enterprise. An interesting article by a couple of forensic accounts gave a cursory account of how Livestrong spends 45 cents in order to raise $1 in donations. Could this be Greg Mortenson and 3 Cups of Tea on a grander scale? http://fraudbytes.blogspot.com/2011/04/what-does-livestrong-and-three-cups-of.html
Just wanted to say that Barry Hussein has been in charge for more than two years. That pesky “the buck stops here” thingie still apply, or did it go by the wayside around the “it all depends what your definition of ‘is’ is” period?
Oh, and maybe Lance really DIDN’T dope. “Innocent until proven guilty”. Another of those pesky little thingies. Rule of law getting in the way, dontchaknow.
Threats? Simple…Immunity in exchange for honest, verifiable testimony. Lie and your immunity goes out the window and you get to spend years in and out of court and possibly jail. The legal expenses would likely break most cyclists.
When you’re pushing 40 stuff that was funny in your 20’s isn’t so funny. Most of these cyclists don’t have an actII at this point in their lives.
Joe, you have got to be kidding. I don’t need a court to confirm every event in the world, I can use my own logic and judgement.
@ hellbilly 22, damn you to Helll for bring Pete Rose into this mess. You obviously have no idea what you’re playing with here.
its called VO2 max, lookup LeMond’s vs LA or any other.
Indurain – 88
LA – 85
Greg LeMond – 92.5 = Highest VO2 Max ever recorded.
YoRo, your “logic and judgement” don’t mean shit. The rule of law does.
“Greg LeMond – 92.5 = Highest VO2 Max ever recorded.”
HUMPTY— do you know if that includes Mr. Ed Viesturs (the Himalayan climber dude)? Cause that dude’s off the fricken chart for oxygen uptake.
Joe, I’m not talking about putting anyone in jail, but I KNOW what I KNOW…if you still have questions, so be it.
Please spend more of our tax dollars cleaning up sports. Barry Bonds, Marion Jones and now Lance Armstrong……the world is going to be such a better place for my kids. Here’s a thought, Jeff Novitzky, how about you get yourself over to the middle east and use your superior investigative skills to help this country…or is there too much inherent risk in doing real police work?
Mikey – VO2max and lung capacity are not the same thing.
Also, VO2max is a good, but not great predictor of aerobic athletic performance. That doesn’t mean that Lemond was not a HUGE talent.
elSid— okay, I did the web search— Viesturs’ VO2 max comes in at a respectable 88 liters per kilogram.
I don’t understand why so many people are flying the ‘taxpayers’ dollars’ flag. This is division of labor. There are thousands of Federal employees and this guy’s job is to investigate shit like this, regardless of how arbitrary we may find it. Jeff Nowitzky (sp?) isn’t the only person in the federal gubmint spending money. I’d bet that the amount of money spent on this investigation is probably a drop in the fucking bucket compared to a lot of things the Feds spend money on. The cost is irrelevant. The concerns are not.
Do I think most serious riders are doped? Yeah… it’s hard to believe they’re not. Do I want to see Lance ‘fall?’ Yeah, I do, but honestly, I’d like to see him just come out with it. It takes balls to admit to it, and I think we’d all respect him for it. I think I dislike him so much because he’s such a fucking menacing asshole, the way he’s treated the people who have [as far as I’m concerned] come clean.
As I was watching the Giro dance up the Monte Zoncolan this morning, I noticed a motorbike (no cars allowed up that climb) had blown its motor or at least incurred a serious coolant leak. The shit is that fucking steep… and the organizers took two climbs out of the stage this morning! Seeing that shit makes me think that we should just let them do what they want because that kind of climbing is damn near inhuman.
I should add that I feel that if Lance’s legacy were to crumble under dope, it’d probably be a huge blow to cycling – perhaps the blow that wakes everyone up and forces the sport to go in the right direction. That’s mainly why I want to see him fall but I understand that there’s a possibility that if that were to happen, within a year or two, everyone would forget about it and nothing would change.
The sport will not come clean for very long. As a young, risk taking wild boy rider, you know you will have a short career and the rewards for being faster are more $ and as long as your conscience is OK with it, it feels really fun to be faster by taking the latest boosters. All this talk of drugs and speed; I gotta call my homies for the days riding plan, kit up, pour on more coffee and throw 10mg of ephedrine in the jersey pocket for the last couple of hrs of fun. The world as we know it is still here today; let’s all make the most of it.
Lemond. if your natural ability allows you to compete and win w/out drugs, you don’t take drugs.
Paris-Nice 1998. LA had come back to know meaningful results to speak of, only to drop out of this race. That is when he made the decision to dope again. He then got 4th at the ’98 Vuelta, 4th at the World’s that year. The next year he doped his way to 99 Tour win and the public and press vaulted his story to the top. There is no way you would stop drugs after you have created a PR juggernaut. Ironic that this same PR juggernaut (Stapleton and Knaggs) will ultimately be his undoing with Comeback 2.0.
Pride comes before the fall.
“I think I dislike him so much because he’s such a fucking menacing asshole”.
i kind of agree with that…
Armstrong’s VO2max was about 99-102 or so when he was on the EPO and/or the reinjection of his saved RBCs!
Lemond clean? I’d like to think so, but (1) I’m far too skeptical now, and (2) remember that he shares an early fundamental similarity with LA — coach Eddie Borysewicz, whose training program pioneered and thoroughly benefitted from blood doping in the 1980s (yes, Eddie B denied involvement but he was fined nonetheless; hmm, a pioneer in public denials also?). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Borysewicz . Of course let’s not forget that none of this stuff is new and it has plagued the sport throughout its history, including a tarnishing footnote in the resume of the incomparable Eddy Merckx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_Merckx#Doping
Apparently yesterday Gorge tweeted that he made no such comments as the ones being accredited to him on the subject of his grand jury testimony. So now it’s back to taking the word of the two butt nuggets.
Reydin – that’s not quite what Hincapie said.
He did not deny anything related to his Grand Jury testimony. He merely stated he did not communicate directly with the 60 Minutes program.
Again, not denial of his prior testimony under oath (which, of course, none of us have seen). He instead leans on a line I am certain his lawyer strongly suggested he adhere to unfailingly – “I cannot comment on anything relating to the ongoing investigation.”
The classic non-denial. And, really, what else can he do at this point? The Grand Jury testimony is a done deal, he cannot take it back, it has already occurred, and the damage is large.
I’d like to think that bike racing — and other professional sports — will become more and more irrelevant to a public disgusted by increasing allegations and proof of doping. However, that has yet to be borne out by the math. Sponsors and stars are still making money hand-over-fist. Fans are still buying logo-emblazoned apparel and paying for tickets and/or travel to sporting events. While a few naysayers here and there may have actually given up on these professional sports for good, their numbers are so few as to be insignificant. The sad fact is that most people — fans and pro athletes alike — have come to accept that ever-more spectacular results can only be achieved with increased use of performance-enhancing drugs. Most shrug and say, “that’s racing”; as long as they can continue to enjoy the sport, they don’t really care so much about the cheating.
All that remains is a scientific tweaking of the ingredients already in place, a perfecting of the prescribed script; so that at the appointed time in the athlete’s career he will stumble quite publicly with a lackluster placing now and then, thereby maintaining fan interest in the “drama”. Psychological studies have proven, after all, that fans lose interest in someone who wins All The Time (are you listening, Contador?).
Until the public — the fans — start voting with the feet and their wallets, and stop giving these juggernauts so much damned money, we will continue to see such non-events as these “damning” interviews with Tyler, George and other stars of the sport. I think that nearly every one of these guys is winking and nudging each other behind the scenes, because they’ve all been careful enough to guard a bit of nest egg to insure a decent lifestyle after the allegations come out. And if that makes me sound like a crackpot conspiracy theorist, so be it.
To me the amazing thing here is the instant about-face of the Lance fans. All the others were “dirty dopers”. Let’s hang them! -that is- until Laance was caught. Then- all of a sudden, we hear “We don’t care about dope! They all did it, so let’s move on”. From the same people who dog-piled on any OTHER cyclist who doped. Perhaps “mental gymnastics” is the next big sport?
lance, madoff, nba, mlb, trump….. cash rules.. nfl, nascar, politics, oil… cash rules.. cash the opiate… whatever
bread and circuses
bmj, fair enough on the government sponsorship money issue but will the gubment get a refund check from Johan and Lance or is this just additional sunk cost?
Anyway, George can’t go wrong cause he’s a French adviser: his wife Mélanie !
…i’ve gotta wonder about the psychological aspect of constantly appearing undaunted in the face of what are becoming overwhelming odds…
…it’s been proven time & time again that the uni-baller is one focused motherfucker but are we looking at old school obsessive denial or does it run deeper ???…
…on the surface, the man has a very determined but casual demeanor (check out his tweet thingy) but is it real or does this ‘grand jury’ situation have him sweating behind the scenes ???…
…for a long time now, it’s been a case of “i’m clean, i’ve always been clean, no one has ‘proven’ otherwise & this whole big (& growing) circle of detractors have something to gain by attacking me”…
…that’s all well & good in the media but now we’re talking government prosecutors, courtrooms…
…just how obsessed is mr armstrong ???…would he lie to a grand jury to protect his legacy, thinking he’d be letting down the whole ‘livestrong’ organization, ???…
…or would he lie to the feds because he honestly thinks he’s bigger than life & can get away with it ???…
…i mean, does the man even have a conscience left or is he just obsessed with seeing himself as a ‘savior’ of the cancerous portion of mankind ???…
…too many questions, not enough answers…& the few answers that come out of the armstrong camp are ‘same old, same old’…
Or maybe he really is clean.
…i’ll give you this, joe, you are your own man but i’d suggest you’re a man in denial of a lotta things…
…& remember…i was one of the last guys here to turn…i gave him the benefit of the doubt long past reason, given the evidence…
…i’ll always believe armstrong is a champion caliber cyclist, i’ll always believe that the ‘livestrong’ foundation is definitely worthwhile for what it accomplishes but as far as lance armstrong, the man, i think he’s lying through his fucking teeth…
Wow, been fishing at Lee’s Ferry in the Canyon for a few days. Missed the looting parties and these news tidbits.
At #22 maybe a handle change for you? A little too similar for my taste. No offense and condolences if you really are a hellbilly.
I’ve historically had a problem with the continued lying by all involved and the technique of discrediting all who spoke out, specifically the Andreu’s. The big picture problem is definitely with the governing body and maintaining doping as the status quo. The sport does need to get broken down and re-built.
If Lance really was a core good guy, then maybe many of us would feel different.
He’s a fucking prick
Hincapie made some comment in Velonews about sacrificing his life for the sport. Sounds like he’s balls-deep in that choice. No sympathy here, but I’ll buy Tyler’s book and George’s when he gets to it. Sad, but entertaining as hell.
I feel fortunate to have spent my formative racing years during simpler times when the only international cycling news came from trying to read the local bike shop’s copy of Mirroir Du Cyclisme. Hero’s remained a little more pure in that format.
With Ya Hellbelly,
In my formative years, my heroes rode Motocross, only smoked dope, drank shitloads of beer & fucked their teammates wife, (Graham Noyce, I’m looking at you).
Lance, I’ve never met him but several books that I’ve read say that he’s an arsehole, the TDUs he’s done confirm that.
Tyler, I’ve never met him but I’ve always like the man, yes he doped but any man who does a pro cycling event with a busted collar bone, (regardless of how doped he was), has my admiration.
& there’s the dogs.
In fact, Tyler, from down under, GOOD ON YOU! FUCKING GOOD ON YOU !!
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