While Snake gets ready to kill it this weekend, I’ve been pondering some thoughts on women’s racing. Since the shitstorm I created this summer, women’s racing has been something I’ve wanted to post about on DC for a long time. Here it goes.
As my first year of road racing comes to an end (can I get a HELLYES!!) I’ve been thinking about future goals, about the cycling community around me, and all of the lessons learned. There have been a lot of tears shed this summer, a lot of hateful comments, emails, and I’ve come to a conclusion. There are a lot of douche bags in my cycling community.
After my horrible experience racing in a crit with men, where I lasted two laps, I made a decision not to support the races that didn’t include a women’s race. Ever.
I just can’t imagine doing this professionally. Check out this post 40 Hands sent me this morning.
The more she listened to the buzz about a new Lance Armstrong-backed bicycle stage race coming to Colorado next summer, the more she hurt. Eventually, Abbott — one of the premier female cyclists in the world — couldn`t take it anymore.
“I actually had to turn it off just because it made me so sad, because I don`t necessarily see it as very likely that they`ll have a women`s race,” Abbott said in an interview with the Camera recently.
Abbott is well aware of the economics and other circumstances that make staging high-level men’s bike races difficult in the United States — much less on the women’s side where sponsorship and public following lag far behind.
“When you have Lance Armstrong on your side, it’s easier,” Abbott said. “But we need Lance Armstrong to say, ‘And we also would like to have a women’s field.'”
You listening Lance??? You have the $$$$! Give the women their own race for fucks sake! Why is it so hard? Will someone please explain to me?
Then there’s this post.
It’s the age-old issue – equal pay for equal work. For bike racing this is a touchy subject as men and women’s prize lists are rarely equal. Not only is the pay rarely equal but the race distances are also significantly shorter……
…….To add fuel to the fire, pre-orders for the 2011 Cyclepassion calendar was announced. Cyclepassion is a calendar which features elite women racers dressed in sexy/provocative clothing. Does this help or hinder the cause for women as being seen as equal or does it just reduce them to objects?
Sex sells. Always has, always will. Money is money, and everybody is pretty much sucking dick for it these days. Including me and you.
So, where can I get a Cyclepassion calendar?
Suck My Left One – Bikini Kill
Have a great weekend.by
Keep fighting the good fight. And remember. I got your back.
PS – I would gladly pay for a calendar of half-dressed hot male cyclists to put on my wall. Just sayin’.
Great post – opened my eyes to the injustice. We (the cycling community) could do better.
Great post Judi! I think that the points made here are valid, to say the least. As someone with some a-hem…historical perspective…I would like to add some positive spin about the women’s racing scene. Back when I started racing, when wheels were wooden and square…women’s fields were NEVER separated out into categories, just “Women”. The fields rarely saw more than 10-15 racers, except in the NRC style races. Over the years, there have been a few very proactive people who have been VERY dedicated to growing the sport. They fostered Cat 4 series in the different regions (specifically the southeast and midatlantic that I am familiar with), and then a cat 3 series in the midatlantic that did the same. These series were instrumental in pulling in novice women to the sport, and helping them advance within the sport. Our field sizes began to grow throughout the 90s and early 00’s.
Cyclocross is another example of HUGE growth in the sport with regard to women (but also an example of the disparate payouts in prize lists). When I started racing cyclocross in 2001 women’s fields were about 5-10 deep in local races. There are some local races that are fielding a Women’s Cat 1,2 Women’s Cat 3,4 and Women’s Master’s 45+ races this year. That is some exponential growth since 2001.
So as one of the waning veterans of the sport, I see things from a different perspective from some of the “up and comers” like you. Unfortunately for me, the deeper fields just means more fresh blood to rip my legs off, makes me feel older ever year!
major beth! XO! thanks for your thoughts, i love the positivity you threw in for me. with that, i DO want to shout out to mitch graham at bio wheels who encourages BIG purses prizes for the women (promoter of the madeira centennial crit and the cinti uci cx festival (katie compton took home 10k last year).
Nice, Judi. Looks like you learned the same things I did in your first year of road racing. There are some great people, but there are a lot of shitheads to weeds through to get to them.
Bikini Kill FTW!
Strong work, don’t ever stop racing because of the big guys. The more they have to “deal” with you, the more respect they’ll have to give.
I’ve never raced very much road, a couple tri’s here and there, but I have noticed a large divide between road racing and mountain. (i.e. the roadie v. mountain thing) I’ve never been to a mountain race without a women’s category, if not multiple. And some of them are willing to create a category for women’s duos, co-ed, whoever you bring along. I don’t want to says it’s due to a more laid back atmosphere, since there’s some hardcore mtn folks out there. But that community as a whole is much more of that, a community.
the OVCX series has a women’s 1/2/3, an open 3/4 and a masters 35+ women 3/4. it CAN be done. just sayin’. thanks so much.
Raced cross vs. Alison Dunlap and Katie Compton each. They both made me blow snot bubbles. there is no doubt that womens racing gets shit for promoting and it is not right.
i have promoted a few MTB races and I remember getting into it once with the Pro Womens field b/c they only had 5 in the race and the Men had 32. I caught a lot of shit for it, but I could not pay as much b/c of the field size. I tried to make up for it with no cash prizes but that was like pouring kerosene on the fire.
having said that, those issues would not be a problem is little girls out there knew that it could be a dream to be a Pro Cyclist….it is usually something the fall into or have family that did it. That falls to USA cycling which if you noticed in the pictures of the Colorado stage race announcement, Steve Johnson was front and center with Pharmstrong….
I am happy that there is another stage race in CO, but sad at the way it came about….money talks. Unfortunately until USA cycling gets behind it, the sponsors won’t either.
Mara kicks ass. She’s faster than all of us. I’ve seen it fist hand; she dropped me hard. Honestly, I think she could do middle to bottom of the pack GC result in the Men’s new Coors (err Michelob Ultra) Classic. She’s that tough uphill.
Holy shit, I just clicked on your “shitstorm” link. I had no idea. That Rick Hoeting fellow is an A-Grade Douchebag, I mean a douchebag of the very highest order.
If it isn’t fun, don’t do it. Good luck.
Dear Rick Hoeting,
Surprising that you ride for Queen City Wheels?
A bit inappropriate for a Chauvinist, don’t you think?
I didn’t even know you existed before I read this article, but
being the curious person I am, I did a little research.
Quite frankly, I’m not impressed.
The term Douchebag seems way too polite to describe you, and all you represent.
KEEP RACING JUDI…you are the future of cycling.
pro women race as fast as junior men, so it won’t be the premiere event, but I would personally rather watch the women
I’ve been racing bikes since I was a “little” girl. Started racing at 16, and I’ve raced at the pro level on both the dirt and the road. I’ve raced the men, too. Not to mention, as a female racer, you find yourself training with the men on many occasions. For the most part, the male cyclists I’ve met have a great deal of respect for female riders and/or racers. However, there are a few bad apples out there, as your shitstorm proves, no doubt. But for the most part, I’ve found respect among fellow riders and racers (male and female alike)…though rarely equal payout or sponsorship or press or fame or whatever for women and men.
That being said, women’s cycling certainly doesn’t get the respect it deserves…or the money, for that matter. At the same time, USA Cycling HAS gotten behind women’s cycling in a big way in the last few years. Every year, they are sending more and more women to Europe to race, and now the USA National Women’s team (road) is well-respected in the European peloton, what with all-star performances by women like Mara Abbott, Kristin Armstrong, and many others. And though USAC is lagging a bit in support for the women on the dirt, there are some signs they are starting to see the light there as well.
There are women out there who are dedicated to the sport and working to garner more respect. That in and of itself is what matters. There will always be naysayers – and maybe never equal prize money or sponsorship – but there is equal (if not greater) passion in women’s racing (dirt, track, cross, road, whatever).
Oh and…there is less doping controversy in women’s cycling at the moment…just sayin’.
So stick to your guns, ladies! Keep pedaling those bikes.
Some races even have a class for fat decrepit old geezers like me. Not that I race or anything; I’m just sayin’…
@melanie, thanks for reading and thanks for the encouragement!! keep pedaling girl.
Howdy. You all might find what Kerry Litka has to say.
There just aren’t enough women racers. I can’t count the number of races I’ve been at , both road and MTB and the womens field is 3 to 7 racers tops and only half are competative. This doesn’t bode well as a feeder for the higher CAT’s.
equal pay for equal work ?
Finishing 3rd out of 7 should hardly be rewarded the same as 3rd out of 70.
Sorry but racing is hard and even harder to find a race for dames.
Oh…Don, Don, Don….sweetie pie. Tootsie. When you learn how to spell competitive, we’ll take you a little more seriously. Sleep tight snook’ems.
It’s competitive Don.
Amazing how no one is focusing on the fact that someone like Richard Hoeting is part of USA Cycling and clearly should not be.
Someone like that is preventing the evolution of cycling in general.
Oh, and Kerry Litka needs to get out more.
That kind of shit happens everywhere, and it’s not gender specific.
Just in the interest of this ongoing conversation, I have a question; what of paying ten deep in both the men’s and women’s field where the former has 70 entrants and the latter only seven?
Should a bigger field have a richer prize purse, a deeper pot of money from which to ladle out primes & prizes? It’s either that or the big pot feeds the little pot. Which, honestly, may be ok as well.
@honey – rick got his. trust me on that. he’s still getting it. what really sucks is that there are SO many more “rick hoetings” out there that we don’t even know about. USA cycling cares about aged 25-35 white males. that’s about it.
@bj – i know nada about the purse prize stuff. experts, please weigh in. all i know is that lance should give the women their race!
You should race mountain bikes. http://www.ombc.net. The payout schedule is the same as the mens. Lower payouts only reflect the smaller field. A local Cincinnati shop has guaranteed a minimum payout at this weekend’s race at Ceasar Creek.
You start with women and race your class only. Because its an MTB race, there is nobody wheelsucking till the finish.
BTW, most MTB races in the area seem to be independent of USA cycling!
BJ – I think if the promoter is wise, they will advertise the prize list with a caveat of “minimum field size of _____ required” to prevent an uncomfortable scenario like this. In such instances I think it is reasonable to cut the prize list for the women’s field to the top three or top five. If a very small number are being paid out (such as three), then I would encourage maintaining the pay schedule for the top three from the top ten schedule. The excess funds can be used for primes for the men’s field or to cover losses on the race in general.
Obviously this is just one scenario – there a number of ways this could be handled justly without causing WWIII. Will everyone be happy? Never. Such is life.
@jeremy – thanks, mtb’ers are way mellow. last weekend they were so polite when i pulled over to let them pass. i was looking at doing EI but i actually took on some overtime the next two sundays. good luck if you are racing at cc. if you see debbie b., cheer her on for me. it’s her 1st MTB race in 4 years i think. we’ll be at EF riding sunday nite.
“Give the women their own race for fucks sake!”
Putting on races is hard work. Our club sponsors and puts on 6-8 races a year, all categories. Several times the payout is deeper than the field that shows up. Just checked out USA Cycling’s site for permitted races. Scanning the contact info tab doesn’t show many female promoters. I have been both a race promoter and volunteer in my years and I can tell you I’d MUCH rather be a volunteer. Maybe the best way to tackle this would be to show them you can do it better.
I hear you Judi.
I guess that was the point I was trying to make as well.
Hopefully in the near future people like that won’t have the opportunity to make decisions involving our sport.
All people who speak up for what they feel is wrong help make a difference.
Thank you for opening my eyes to this.
@26 – you sound just like a QCW BOD member. that’s what they told me when i asked them to give us a womens race this summer. maybe someday i will be a race promoter. who fucking knows? right now, i am just trying to get through my first year of racing.
Every race our club puts on (not QCW by the way) has womens categories. Always has, always will. Those USA cycling permits speak for themselves. Not directed at you, just a curious stat. Sometimes the best way to change things is to take them on yourself.
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My secretary usually does my typing but I gave her the night off to pick up my dry cleaning and buy herself a nice hat.
If you can’t argue the message attack the spelling…
It’s hardly easy to get a men’s race going even if Lance is involved. How many men’s races are gone.. tour of Georgia… the most recent.
Frankly, why do you want Lance to do it for you? Do it yourself. Start small and work your way up. If you can’t make a small woman’s race self supporting, what makes you think a big race will be?
No one is owed anything in life…. you have to show you deserve it. Or flat out take it from someone else.
On a more serious note since the humor didn’t go over, grassroots is the only way to go.
If you look at MTB, grassroots seems to be out pacing NORBA races now a days.
If it’s money you are looking for, you’re SOL. Only a few make money and fewer are in it to make money.
The money that is available is derived from the entry fees and if you only have a few girls enter the race , it’s just not there. Do you think the money should be the same for beating 5 people as it is for beating 70+ ?
Sorry but thats the facts.
I agree they should have a womens only race. If they wont do it, start your own.
Here it goes Judi…
You raced the good race. Your first cross race you were passed by the kids if I’m not mistaken. You are so driven as a tri geek as to go by results in the whole race, ie; as we only lasted two laps to the men’s… bla bla bla…
If you get it into your head that your racing your race, then what does it mater other than DFL?? Second place in the men’s is only the first place loser??? Don’t you think.
It would be nice to see womens races… all five of you. Until you can line up 25-30 you’ll be with the men.
Judi I do not remember sucking your dick, please post pics
Totally start your own race if you want to race, it’s super easy.
All of these men had to fight their own races, god, it’s so easy.
This turned into a total waste of time.
Funny that everyone hates Lance, but wants his money…
So we want a women’s: GP de Plouay-Bretagne, Open de Suède Vargarda, Open de Suède Vargarda, GP Ciudad de Valladolid , Tour of Chongming Island World Cup, La Flèche Wallonne Féminine, Unive Ronde van Drenthe, Ronde van Vlaanderen / Tour des Flandres, Trofeo Alfredo Binda – Comune di Cittiglio AND WE WANT IT NOW!
so we have THEM but how a bout a few more for the ladies, and not those crummy ladies only alleycat races ,a REAL race that has more than a messenger bag as a prize!!!
To hell with racing Judi. The nature of racing is really egocentric in the road racing scene. I loved it when I was younger, but now feel it is a waste of time and resources. Get some bags and go for some overnight tours w/ Dom. You can get all the epicness of a good race and you get out and meet folks and go kooky places. Go on club rides, unless they’re too snooty to let outsiders join in the fun. My guess is you ride for fun and fitness and thrills; you can still have all that action and avoid spending time w/ assholes you now know you don’t like. You’ve tried it out; maybe time to say thanks but no thanks to the road scene. So many fun things to do on a bike beside hanging out w/ classist assholes.
the racing scene is tough. who doesn’t enjoy testing mettle and rubbing elbows? with the road set, the pervasive tone is one of insecurity within an establishment of unsubstantiated elitism.
i’d definitely count on the mtb racing to provide you with less of that. the inequality that you face is embarrassing, to say the least. beyond that, it’s for sure disturbing. brace for it, i suppose, and when you fight it the way you did, you expose the completely weak.
see? balls are gay. i told you so.
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ask the men’s field for support, without them the race is a failure.
@Bluenoser – im shocked at your comment. how many beers did that take? all 5 of us? ummm, there were 30+ fucking women at vandervorts corner this spring. team dayton has 33 fucking women on their team alone! and this is amateur racing for fucks sake. fuck you thomas. fuck you.
don’t let the musty douche’s get you riled up Judi…
I never made it past sport or expert in the norba scene before deciding that i didn’t need to get caught up in the bs…. it can make racing no fun real quick.
now all i do is the endurance events. those are fun. first of all i know i’m never gonna win it. the win for me is testing myself – seeing what i’m capable of still. can i do it better than last year… etc. that is fun. no series standings, no rankings, just you against the earth and time.
that and all are friends at the endurance events.
The underground race scene is way more fun than “legit” race scenes anyway. So much less attitude when then main focus is fun.
By Don’s figuring out here our cat 4 women should have had some of the largest payouts at the beginning of this year…. we had around 5 races that had to have *2* cat 4 women’s fields because there were so many of them registered that they went over the limit….
Pack your bags and move out to Washington or Oregon. We have a vibrant women’s racing scene here in the PNW. We have enough ladies to have cat 4 fields at nearly all races and separate cat 3 at many. We still have to assert ourselves and for sure the payouts are usually poor compared to the boys, but we are making strides.
And it hasn’t been that long – 10 years ago or even less we had the same stuff happening up here, but some really dedicated women pushed. First they pushed for their own fields, then they pushed for cat 4 fields and you know what happened – women did come, they were no longer intimidated by being thrown directly in with the sharks so we’ve gone from the times when 5 ladies would line up for the big races and invariably unless you were one of the ones who was immediately the strongest you’d just get dropped and discouraged. Now we can get 80+ women to turn out in March in the pouring rain to race cat 4’s.
Don’t give up Judi, because you are right.
@seatle racer, you go on with your bad self girl. that’s wtf this is about. getting MORE women involved in the sport. i encourage every woman i see and if i show up at a race and notice a girl i don’t recognize, i say hi, introduce myself, and say LETS RIDE! thank you so much for taking the time to comment. i hope women continue to grow in this sport. xo.
The point that I was trying to make in my series of posts about women’s cycling is that there are number of variables affecting the current status of things and that there is no one single factor that you can point to as the root cause of the problem. Like Beth Mason, I too started racing in the last century and have seen the meteoric rise of women’s fields in the early part of the 2000s and then seen them rapidly deteriorate to where we are now, where we are lucky to get 15 women for a big money downtown crit and promoters are dropping women’s fields every weekend. Here in New England we’ll be lucky if we have 10 races on the calendar next year for any women’s fields, and when I started racing in ’99 we regularly had 50 in the Cat 4s and another 30-40 in the 1-2-3s.
If women want races, they need to take an active role in promoting them. Sending nasty emails to promoters is not going to make you any friends, it is not going to make them want to offer fields for you, and it will only contribute to the lack of opportunities. Here in NE there is a team well known for boycotting races if they disagree with anything the promoter ever said/did/implied/thought about regarding women’s racing. The end result is the club with the largest percentage of women racers organizes a boycott, and the promoter sees low numbers in the women’s race and decides to cancel, which effectively screws over the rest of us who actually took the time and money to enter said race. Women like to cut off their nose to spite their face.
Regarding being ‘forced’ to enter mens races and getting dropped – I’m sorry but if you want to be competitive, you need to be able to hang in a training race with men, as they are not going that much faster. Getting dropped happens but learning to ride in a faster, more competitive field will make you stronger. I view some of my better results as those races where there was no women’s field and I had to race with the men – the race was a lot tougher, I got in a much better workout, and I had a major sense of accomplishment.
Please don’t turn bike racing into another version of triathlon, where if you can’t swim they provide you with a helper monkey to do it for you.
Also – I don’t know of too many men’s teams where the team manager is sleeping with one of the dudes on the team. I may be wrong, here, but I am not aware of it.
Here’s the helper monkey link:
hey kerry, thanks for your thoughts. i really don’t take this racing thing as seriously as you do, obviously. i only do it as a means to keep myself out of trouble. i haven’t been in the game for a decade. hang with a men’s race? me? fuck no. i smoked for 23 years and treated my body like shit. no, i’m NOT good. i am simply an amateur masters bike racer, trying to step away from triathlon, and will never cat up above a 3.
as far as race promoting goes, i probably won’t go there. i’ll often volunteer to help at races though.
and what’s this about sleeping with a team manager?
hey kerry, i just read your latest blog post. you sound like a total bitch. i don’t think i’d like you if i met you.
Kerry is way cool. She’s well spoken, very well educated and probably the smartest person I have even met in women’s pro cycling. She might seem to have a bit of the acid touch, but really she just flat out tells it like it is with a bit of spice, just right. Her stuff is never boring, and I have met and talked with a lot of pro women who were much less interesting.
I heart Kerry
Are you sure you didn’t start racing in the early 1900’s?
Kerry ftw. While the statement, “Women like to cut off their nose to spite their face” need not only apply to women and bike racing, it certainly seems to apply here.
@barry, i doubt she knows what FTW means. yep, kerry and me – we are the exact opposite. better hope we never meet.
Why exactly do you hope we never meet? Are you going to beat me up or something? I should warn you, although I am small I am quite fast and if I am on foot or on a bike I can probably get away from you before you even had a chance to throw the first punch.
People wonder why women’s racing is suffering…maybe if people who are new to the sport stopped for a moment to do some research and examine why problems exist and think about how to fix them rather than just firing off inflammatory emails, perhaps then we wouldn’t be here.
If you read what I wrote in my comment above, I simply stated that your method of trying to increase opportunities for women’s racing by sending a rather terse email to a promoter wasn’t going to win you any fans and was not helping our situation.
I also take issue with your implication that because you got dropped, had a ‘horrible experience’ and as a result were left with “zero confidence”, it is somehow the promoter’s fault that this happened and he needs to offer a women’s race so you can feel better about yourself.
Cycling is not a ‘feel good about yourself’ sport. It is not designed to stroke one’s ego. It’s hard. If you can’t hang, train harder. Don’t blame promoters because you don’t have what it takes to stick in a race. What if the promoter did offer a women’s race, and you still got dropped after 2 laps? Would you then be demanding a “slow race” and a “fast race” so you can develop your confidence?
I’ve been dropped and DNFd more races in my life than you have ever entered, and believe me, it is a lot more demoralizing to be dropped in a women’s race than it is in a men’s race. When I get dropped in a men’s race, I don’t get discouraged, because I am not technically training to race against guys. When I don’t get dropped, it’s a bonus for me. When I get dropped in a women’s race, I get the harsh reality check that I need to train harder. Every time I enter a men’s race I do so with the knowledge that I might not hang for very long, and I am OK with that. So from a confidence perspective, I don’t see how getting dropped in a men’s race was such a life changing event for you.
Although I think it is unfortunate that women’s racing has deteriorated, I am not blaming promoters. On the rare occasion that I do find fault with a promoter’s decision to cancel or merge women’s fields, I try to be constructive in my criticism and open up a dialogue with the promoter so as to improve the situation and solve the problem.
I’ve been in the sport for 12 years, and I have devoted a tremendous amount of time to fostering women’s cycling. I’ve lost track of the number of women I have helped over the years who have contacted me about getting started in racing. I take great pleasure in riding with new riders showing them the ropes, offering advice, and helping them improve.
Your attitude and response only further supports my theory that a percentage of women cyclists are their own worst enemy. If you don’t like the way things are, then CHANGE THEM. Do not sit around complaining about how no one is doing it for you, then make empty threats from behind your keyboard. It accomplishes nothing and it does not solve the problem.
The problem seems to be a lack of interest. Promoters need to watch their bottom line, and no one likes to get their ass handed to them. Kerry is right that it’s not a sport for stroking your ego. It’s hard to break into. Promoters need to be gently reminded that there’s a lot of $$$ in women’s athletics (look at Danskin with triathlon). I think that cycling just needs a charismatic woman like Lance is to spark interest. More interest=more women=more races at all levels.
Welcome to the world of Bike Racing. The sad truth here is that womens racing is suffering from apathy on both ends of the sport; the promoters _and_ the competitors. Having promoted many races myself and assisting with dozens more, it isn’t a case of “build it and they will come”. They won’t come. They never do. Sure, you’ll get a small hard-core group of maybe a dozen or so local women that do every race they can, but even then, having 30 women show up for a local event is unheard of over the past few years, and it’s far more common to have less than half that. The promoters therefore do what any person trying run an event in the black do, they host categories that they know will pay for the event.
Now, I don’t being one of the cat 3 masses who get a shitty prizelist so they can offer a $5000 payout to the pro/1/2 men. This is their career, they race to eat, they race fast and strong, and I learn a lot from them when they offer a pro/1/2/3 race. I pay the entry fee knowing I have no chance at getting it back, but happy for the chance to race – albeit for a short time – with some of the best domestic racers we have to offer. Hell, as a 48 year old cat3/master, Being able to finish with the leaders in a 30 mph pro/1/2/3 crit is a small victory in itself.
Cat 4 women don’t race to feed themselves, and in most cases they aren’t willing to spend money racing against a small field they know they’ll get dropped from. Local promoters therefore need to make a decision for the best interest of the club, and it usually results in best interests of womens and juniors cycling being secondary. For example, when you have to pay a police officer in 4 hour blocks of time (that’s the way things are in new england), and you have a womens race that has eight pre-entries two days before the event, it becomes an issue of being cost effective. Drop the race no one is coming to, send the cops home after 4 hours, and save the club the cost of 4 hours of police detail (times 3-4 cops, could be as high as $1000).
So, yes, you’re going to see woman’s races go by the wayside, until women start showing up. That means you’re going to have to go to mens 4/5 races. Sorry, that’s just he way it is right now. For a person at your level of the sport, this isn’t a bad thing. In order to get faster, you need to ride with faster riders. In order to race better, you need to race with better racers. Lining up with ten other women who drop you in the first few laps aren’t going to do that. Lining up with 75 men who you can at least draft off of _will_ do that. As your fitness comes along, so will your technical skills. If you have any aspirations at all of just being able to be competitive in a 3/4 womens field, racing with the men on a regular basis is a damn good idea anyways.
All that said, Rick Hoetings comments, attacks, and attempts to defame you are completely inexcusable. If for no other reason, I would boycott his race just because he’s a fucking dick. But, I’ll second the comment “if you quit, he wins”. Keep racing 4/5 mens races. From what I can see in the USAC results, he’s a cat 4 sandbagger anyways, wouldn’t it be ironic if you lined up in front of him and took him out at the start line?
oh snap! a cat fight! BJ, you gotta love this shit. where the fuck is gnomey?
kerry – i hope we never meet because i AVOID bitches like you in this sport. and i only punch if you punch me first.
you are one of those roadies with the attitude that YOU are better than everyone else, ESP those lowly cat 4 women that also compete in TRIATHLON. HOW dare they enter a bike race! and OMG you might have to race with them.
as a female cyclist/racer that’s been around as long as you have, maybe you ought to consider encouraging and mentoring rather than making fun and being a big snotty bitch about it.
By your logic, why do the Men have Cat 4/5 races? Shouldn’t the men just all race together with the Cat 1s and if they get dropped then they’re just not training hard enough? “Train harder” is an easy answer on paper but the fact of the matter is I know Judi and probably everyone else out there is doing everything they can to “train harder” within the context of their life. Their are only so many hours in a day and some of us have families, jobs, and believe it or not, interests and hobbies outside of cycling that make us well balanced and happy people but cut into training time.
Obviously you and I see things differently as I think all sports should be “feel good about yourself” sports, 99% of us aren’t pros and we do this because we enjoy it. If you’re not having fun, why are you racing? It is fun to push yourself and try and reach new levels of fitness and racing goals. And yes, we’re all going to get dropped along the way. But, one would expect to be able to compete against their peers.
The fact of the matter is, you and Judi both want the same thing…to better the sport of cycling for women. I personally think and know from experience that many new women trying to get into racing elect not to do certain races because they see “Women 1,2,3,4” and know they’ll be lumped in with people like yourself who have more experience. Promoters could ease some of this intimidation factor by offering a “Women 1,2” and “Women 3,4” race. Bearing in mind the promoter does have to make money (or else there wont be any races for anyone) then it’s the job women to get out there and recruit other women and show up and race.
Pay attention, judy. Kerry wrote “I’ve lost track of the number of women I have helped over the years who have contacted me about getting started in racing. I take great pleasure in riding with new riders showing them the ropes, offering advice, and helping them improve.”
I’ve known her personally for all those 12 years she’s been involved in racing. Yes, she mentors, encourages, and supports women who are willing to learn and not whine about not being treated like a princess. She worked exceptionally hard at becoming a cat 2, and she’s always been more than willing to impart that knowledge and experience on those willing to listen. When she got her cat 3 upgrade, she knew she would have to learn crit skills, so she went on trining rides with a few male riders (including me), watched, and learned. It’s advice you should take as well.
You should know by now in your life (especially _your_ life) that no one is going to give you anything. You need to earn it.
FWIW – Men triathletes are as much an anathema in mens road racing as women, if not more. The reason is that they are strong enough to keep up, but they lack pack high-speed-cornering skills. Crashes ensue. I hardly consider my self a raodie snob, but lining up in a open masters race with a guy who just took his aero bars off his TT bike gives me the chills.
@ ryan: The thing is that there are so many sandbaggers in men’s 5 and masters that anyone who’s not hiring a coach and logging 20+ hours per week on the bike is not “training hard enough” to sit in. Road racing is simply not geared towards those of us who have other things in life to take seriously. Personally, I’m comfortable with the fact that cycling is the one thing in my life that I don’t take seriously. I show up at the occasional club time trial, where I can at least get my ass kicked in peace, but refuse to waste money on a USAC license or any race with an entry fee. I don’t blame the promoters either. It’s just the nature of the sport that it’s not conducive to less than total commitment.
Well, ryan, if you’re going to make such ridiculous hypotheticals, you shoule at least learn from history. The reason promoters offer cat 4/5 races is that they fill the fields. They make money. If cat 4/5 racers didn’t show up, they wouldn’t have the cat 4/5 fields and you _would_ occasionally see a combined mens open field.
For that fact, the answer to your question is that they always used to have pro/1/2/3 races before there were ever cat 4 races. It used to be that you got your initial license as a cat 3. Then Greg Lemond won the TdF. cycling experienced such a boom that they had to create a new separate entry-level field, and they rarely combined them. Even separate cat 3 fields were rare ‘back in the day’. This prcess repeated itself with the Armstrong phenomenon, so now we have cat 5’s. Next up, separate cat 5 over and under 35 categories. Wanna know why they do that?
They get enough riders that will make hosting these separate fields worthwhile. when demand for them drops they’ll be combined. When demand for separate cat 4 over 35 fields increases, they separate them out too. Right now, masters fields are pro/1/2/3/4.
It’s pretty funny hearing you attempt to lecture Kerry on responsibilities and balancing work life. She knows about that as well as you do, I suspect. But to respond to your ‘not having enough time to train’ comment, that’s why we have different categories – so those of us that can’t dedicate 4 hours aweek on the bike can enter a race and ‘feel good about ourselves’.
Even still, If you don’t train on some level, you get dropped, and no one is going to give you a fucking medal for trying, so no ‘feel good award’ for getting beaten.
I took a hiatus from bike racing in 2008 to focus on triathlon. My opinion of triathletes and their bike handling stems from observation of them in the field as well as conversations with them. I have spoken with many women triathletes who express a desire to try bike racing, but make statements along the lines of “I am afraid to ride in a pack” or “I am afraid to ride downhills” or “I am afraid to ride my bike outside.” Forgive me if I do not want to have to race with them. Give them opportunities to race with other beginner women who are equally lacking in skills and everyone will learn together and improve.
You wouldn’t know this, but I recently completed a research study as part of my graduate degree that was specifically on time trial/triathlon bike fit/positioning for WOMEN TRIATHLETES AND CYCLISTS. Want to know why I chose that topic? Because I noticed in my time racing triathlons that a lot of the women had positions on their bike that could be improved upon, but no one was exactly sure how to improve it. I read 47 different research studies on triathlon/aero bike position research and in that entire body of research composed of close to 1000 different subjects, there were only 15 women who were ever studied. Exercise science ignores female athletes. As a researcher in the field, I chose to be a pioneer and try to give something back.
I am also one of only a few people to ever conduct extensive research on female cyclists and triathletes in an effort to improve our knowledge of female physiology and cycling performance, so that we can help women cyclists and triathletes improve their athletic performance.
I did this because I saw an area in need of improvement. I did not do this because I am an elitist roadie snob/snottie bitch/whatever-other-insults-you want-to-fling-at-me. If I were, I would not have conducted this research, because it is only going to benefit people like you, not me.
@Ryan – I never stated women should all be lumped together. I stated that women should not send nasty emails to promoters if they do not offer a women’s field, and I stated that women should race with men if they want to improve and learn how to race. Believe me – I am NOT supporting lumping all women together. I would love to see the return of Cat 4 and Cat 1-2-3 races for women. Cat 3/4 and cat 1/2 does not work because there are not enough 1/2 women to fill a local field. There are enough 1-2-3 to get at least 30 people, and offering Cat 4 only races will entice more beginner women into showing up.
I think all of the dialogue is good — passion from the newbies, insight from the veterans, logistical and financial information from promoters — its all valuable information, even if we don’t agree with each other’s theories on how to move the sport forward for female competitors. Ladies, we need to realize that we are all on the same side. Different backgrounds, different perspectives, different opinions… But we all want the same thing. Let’s listen to each other and do our best to support one another. There has to be some common ground here, don’t you think?
i think the common ground might be …a bicycle. ride and smile ladies. ride and smile.
I sorry folks, but there is a great gulf in this dialogue. Kerry has been very forthcoming and obviously is extremely knowledgeable, but from reading Judi’s posts, I am wondering if she ever went to High School. Perhaps Kerry could provide some names of some books Judi could read first to get up to speed, and then come back and talk to Kerry. As for the threats, I’ll stand up for Kerry if any punches are thrown.
I like ponies.
1) entry fees fuel prize purses. Fewer women = smaller purses. The NCAA tried to “address” this “disparity” with Title IX and I don’t think it’s done anything good, while being explicitly sexist.
2) In my experience, the AVERAGE female cyclist is less aggressive and less willing to suffer than the AVERAGE male cyclist. Shorter races, smaller fields.
Maybe if I put on a wig, I could enter a women’s CAT4/5. I might even be able to hang and that would be fun. Ride fast, ladies. Rubber side down.
I prefer those miniature ponies. They make me feel big when I need to feel big.
I’m uncertain that the topic of this post is still on point, but one day long ago, I had very similar concern about the state of competition in AZ. It was not about women though, but only my state of affairs which are manly as hell.
Upon discussion of those inadequacies with my Pops – a wise motherfucker all to hell – he said something that stuck. It went like this:
“if you’re not prepared to get in there and work for the change you want to see happen, then shut the fuck up and get me another beer.”
Coincidentally, Gandhi stole that quip from my dad. Gandhi is a motherfucker too.
Sarah – Thank you for pointing out the importance of formal education in qualifying one for expressing their thoughts and opinions regarding the sport of cycling. Your elitist stance is quite enlightening in terms of the overall direction of cycling, ensuring that opinions and participation are restricted to only those with the opportunity to pursue the highest quality of post-secondary education.
My family immigrated to the US and while I was able to go to university (I hold three degrees), some of my family members grew up in refugee camps and never finished any formal schooling beyond the eighth grade. Would you care to make fun of them, too? Are they not allowed to have opinions or ideas on their experiences or things they are involved with because they have no formal education? I’d better let them know right away.
I am now going to get an IQ test and credit check before I find out that I, too, am underqualified for posting opinions on experiences in the sport of cycling on Drunk Cyclist. Thanks!
Mikey, while not perfect by any means, I think Title IX has done some good for women’s sports at the collegiate level. It has increased opportunity for athletes and broadened the number of sports that get attention… But then I’m weird, and think that football should share the money they bring in and think that it is bullshit that coaches get paid more than the Dean’s at ACADEMIC institutions. Great football programs do not create great academic institutions. The are about ego and advertising, and are often a distraction to academics.
Can we get away from the talk about beating each-other up? It’s kinda ridiculous. High school bullshit.
I go for zebras. Cooler mohawks.
Road racing at the pro level is mostly filled with College and University women who either have degrees or are working in high profile jobs. However, it’s embarrassing to make a fool out of yourself in a public forum when you are outmatched. I say that because Judi pursues the discussion more like a fight then a discussion. If it was just a progressive discussion then more then likely there would be no chest thumping.
hahaha, hornet’s nest, eh? Funny how people are so full of bile but none of these people will do a damn thing in the real world to make anything happen. That Kerry woman is too busy criticizing people’s experience and/or grammar to actually get anything done. Which is ok, too, since people who cut down other people who seek to support the SAME goal differently than they do are at best small-minded.
As a person who’s put in the time, hours, and $ trying to make stuff happen, I can tell you, there aren’t enough women to get the job done. We need to get other promoters already doing the work on board, since for them it’s far FAR easier to just incorporate women’s racing. How to get them to do that is a big question, but I’d advocate for both the carrot and the stick.
“Race”? Who cares what person got where first? And on a BICYCLE yet? How quaint. Just sayin’…
At this point in my life I’m right there with you joe. I’m just glad I am still able to ride (as in still have both of my legs, even if one is filled with titanium) even if my life (graduate school) doesn’t let me ride very often right now. Nothing like almost dying to teach you that racing’s for people with talent…
“Mikey, while not perfect by any means, I think Title IX has done some good for women’s sports at the collegiate level.”
el jefe— title IX arguably has helped WOMEN’S sports, but I think its value to collegiate sports on the whole is dubious. Pursuing explicitly sexist policy because the ends justify the means is a slippery slope. What about Asian sports? Homosexual sports? I reckon both are systemically under-funded. Where do you draw the line, and who said life was “fair” anyhow?
“I’m weird, and think that football should share the money they bring in and think that it is bullshit that coaches get paid more than the Dean’s at ACADEMIC institutions. Great football programs do not create great academic institutions.”
Oh absolutely, I agree at least 100%. To me, it’s embarrassing that the University of Washington’s largest single program is… men’s football. Yawn. Football has NOTHING to do with higher education— except maybe passing a few autumn afternoons with the lads.
I find it sad and disturbing that you think I am too busy correcting people’s grammar to get anything done. Forgive me and my tendency to correct grammar but as a teacher it is part of my job. It’s hard for me to convince 9th graders that proper spelling and grammar is important if I do not set a good example in other aspects of my life.
I don’t believe we have ever met, Julie, but for you to insist that I am incapable of ‘getting anything done’ in regards to helping to improve women’s cycling just shows your own ignorance.
I guess in your world, my research on female cyclists doesn’t amount to anything – ok, fine. I respect that not everyone cares about research. But you do not know how many women I have helped over the years, you do not know that in 2006 I actually tried to revive the racing scene here in New England but was unable to make any major impact on the status quo (probably because I was too busy working full time correcting people’s grammar). You probably don’t know that I mentor beginner women cyclists, have coached beginner cyclists, and respond to weekly emails from women from all over the world asking for advice ranging from bike fit questions to how to train for races. I do not do any of these things for profit, I do them because I like helping new women get involved in cycling. When I was sponsored by Terry Precision I let women whom I had never met borrow my bikes for test riding so that they could make an informed decision on whether or not to buy one, because bike shops never stocked our bikes.
If you think that I am not “getting it done”, then you really don’t know anything about me or my investment in the sport.
Sarah – You bring up another important point about the sport. The elitism in the sport of cycling. The attitudes which promote the air of priviledge — maintaining the sport as one reserved for the wealthy, the white, the upper middle class, the corporate, the educated, as well as the male. This discussion was initially revolving around issues of gender inequality, yet you have pointed out another level of inequality and lack of diversity in the sport of cycling — that revolving around socioecomic status.
“Road racing at the pro level is mostly filled with College and University women who either have degrees or are working in high profile jobs,” Lovely. Lets remind those poor, uneducated fools who aspire to enjoy the sport of cycling that they should pack it up and go back to their less than suburban homes. How dare they offend us with their cheap bikes and strong opinions! Get back down where you belong, peons!
You’re right — it is usually the privedged, educated (dare I say, white) females that are the first to be able to participate — to taste the first slight flavor of equality. The poor, lower income masses are typically at the end of the equality movement, whether it is in sports or any other opportunity. Does this mean they have no say in the process? You’re right, they are just dummies who should probably shut up and let others with more proper backgrounds do their talking for them. I don’t know why I am even opening my mouth, I recieved two of my degrees from a STATE UNIVERSITY! I know, I’m ashamed to even challenge the greatness of those who went to better universities.
I invite you to volunteer at an inner city bike co-op so you can share your enlightened take on cycling with young at-risk youth and low income individuals — please let them know that there is no place for them in the racing or cycling community, as they do not have the education or finances to join your elite world!
Ahhh, classism is not dead! It is alive and well and flourishing in the cycling community, right alongside sexism.
That’s funny! Pretty good rant. I’m not saying it’s really funny, but a good laugh feels good in this thread so far. Yes, how do we get 10k bikes to kids in families who can’t even put food on the table? We can’t and shouldn’t try either. It’s just not practical in this regard. Look, look at it in this perspective? It’s much cheaper for 20 guys to play hoop on the high school court with a $20 dollar used basketball where the only gear they have to bring with them is a pair of tennis shoes. However, some of those guys might grow up to earn millions in the NBA, as where trying to aspire to pro cycling would be a huge waste of their time? Different strokes for different folks.
You need to keep cycling in perspective. Yes, it’s an expensive sport and a dangerous one. If you don’t have good health insurance and a nice bank account to pay for your gear, then perhaps you shouldn’t fool with it unless it’s a rags to riches story. Joe Blow, one in a million like Lance Armstrong. It’s just sport and entertainment, not a program funded by the government to feed the homeless or something. Sure sports and those who follow sports to some degree are hobbies not afforded to the masses, nor should they be. If you want a hobby, be prepared to pay for it. I have always paid for mine.
The reason it’s mostly white though is become of its roots, not a discrimination thing. True, lack of wealth does discriminate but that applies to much more then sports. But right, there are class wars of various degrees all over the place. This is a whole nother discussion which could fill several threads. Thanks for the laugh, and the serious part too.
Mr. LowBrow— you seem to confuse elitism for racism and classism. It’s a common mistake these days.
OF COURSE bicycle racing is elitist— the fastest guy wins. Duh.
If ambitious amateur cyclists are mostly wealthy (and white), that’s dictated almost totally by the cost of equipment and training. Poor folks don’t buy Colnagos with carbon tubular wheel sets. Does anyone doubt that a more “diverse” pool of competitors would produce a more “diverse” set of elite participants? I don’t think so.
Back to Ms. Kerry’s question: what are you— and of us— doing about it?
Maybe you should tell Rahsaan Bahati that he’s wasting time and the network exec’s money.
Your racist opinion is doing absolutely nothing for the sport.
Mr. Ryan— you seem to confuse elitism for racism and classism. It’s a common mistake these days.
OF COURSE bicycle racing is elitist— the fastest guy wins. Duh.
That most of these elite participants are white is NOT racist.
This thread has veered hard into personal attacks.
If you want competition, ride in the CAT you can hang with. If you can’t hang, ride more, ride harder.
Who gives a rat’s ass what you have between your legs. If you can dominate the men’s Cat 3 field, but you’re the only lady in the area, either crush the boys and take the prizes (always fun, so I hear) or ask the officials if you can race the 1-2’s and maybe get blown out like every other cat 3 who upgrades.
If you can stick with the 1-2’s, awesome. If not, who cares.
You’re there to race, to hurt and hopefully, make the other people hurt more.
If you get blown out by the Cat 4’s, welcome to the world.
Sarah – “How do we get 10k bikes to kids in familes who can’t even put food on the table? We can’t and shouldn’t try”????? WOW. I’m… speechless. The implications of this argument go deep into territory of self entitlement that I could spend pages delving into, but I’ll try to keep it short. No one is advocating for giving away 10k bikes. And if they are I’d like to be first in line to get one — I currently race on an entry level $1,500 bike that took me a year to save for.
By “different strokes for different folks” I would assume the translation breaks down to “If you’re not rich enough to participate, gee that’s a real bummer. Sorry you are poor.” And yes, we should be looking at diversifying and introducing more to the sport in order to promote the health, growth, and sustainability of the sport on a larger scale. Broadening the appeal, and hence paricipation is vital to move the sport forward in the US, and I’m assuming that’s what everyone involved in this dialogue wants.
By diversification, I mean across gender, race, and socioeconomic lines. Arguing for one form of inequality by saying “that’s just the way it is” is simply narrowminded and does nothing for the sport. Arguing that the inequality is palatable because it is “just a sport” is dangerous territory as this can trickle back to the original argument for the equality of female athletes in the sport. Do we really want to argue in terms of these double standards?
And the other brilliant comment re. “…hobbies not afforded to the masses nor should they be.” Are you serious? Please tell me you are kidding. To make it extra funny, you could follow up with “Let them eat cake!”
I work for a nonprofit that pays me less than 35k a year. I love my job. I proudly race on my entry level race bike which took me a year to save up for. I also donate as much money as possible to my local bike co-op because too many people think just like you… that it doesn’t really matter if poor kids get bikes or not, its their lot in life – too bad, they just have to miss out… I strongly disagree. Give more people the opportunity to experience the freedom, the rush of cycling and/or racing and you can change lives (this is the part where the inspirational music starts). I am thrilled everytime I see Jrs lining up at a race. I am excited when I find out about women taking up the sport for the first time. The more we can get on board, regardless of gender, race, or financial background, the better. Unless, that is, you are trying to keep those pesky poor people, women, minorities and others like them out of the sport.
Back to your original argument: that Judi did not appear to have any formal education and hence was outgunned in her arguments and ideas originally posted on this fine academic journal known as Drunk Cyclist. Despite this initial attack on her intellectual credibility, you have proven, beyond a doubt, that your powers of debate are weak, your understanding of issues of inequality (in cycling, and likely in any other arena) limited at best, and your view of the world as sheltered as it is uninformed (I won’t go into detail on the fallacies of your attempt at supporting your opinions, as I don’t want to go over your head too much or bore these readers). Hence, your original assertion seems fairly shaky in terms of your own credibility in terms of intellectual prowess.
Now kindly go fuck your middle class white suburban self.
Nice flame troll bait you naive pretentious pompous ass.
I like ponies.
I like Puppies, and french fries. ummmmmm for different reasons.
It appears that Judi cannot be currently be guided, either sarcastically or gently from the true sages of her adopted sport
I suspect her past life is still very much her life today and it interferes with all she encounters
When all is let go and Judi is able to live in the present, she is certain to blossom
P2P I would actually have hope in, guidance via the Internets – unlikely but… Judi take a look at the formation of the LPGA, that may inspire you
KK thanks for your input, well done
And ladies, as this posting may have you scratching your head
It ain’t that bad out there, leave your guns at home
Hey, whether or not you like her style (and yes, she often comes out with her fists swinging) Judi started a great dialogue and a lot of interesting perspectives came out on her blog, and that’s what a blog is for. Sparking dialogue, debate, and occasionally providing a forum for funny/naked photos.
And as for my pompous assness, Sarah, you made a flip remark at Judi regarding whether or not she finished high school. You tried to make her feel small and ignorant based on her presumed level of education, and insinuated that her thoughts and opinions regarding issues related to womens’ cycling were less valid than, say, someone with a higher level of education. Sorry, but I call bullshit. In the land of the overeducated, we call that type of logical fallacy ad hominem. Perhaps I can, as you recommended earlier to Judi, loan you some books on the topic.
I agree it would be great to have a women’s field in every bike race, and it would be even better to have a separate Women’s 1/2/3 and Women’s 4. But what would be be even better is to have women show up to these races. I’ve been at races this summer in which the promoters have shown their support for women’s racing by offering one (or multiple) fields with large cash prizes, and there have been less than 10 women at the start line. Its slightly embarrassing.
I’m not sure what all the women racers are doing on the weekends. My guess is that its a lot easier for people to talk about being a “bike racer,” and to obsess about what team to join, bike gear and new uniforms. Its a lot harder to train and show up for races, especially after a long week at work, or when our legs are sore and we know that we might get shelled during the race.
So, yeah, it is a huge bummer when a promoter doesn’t offer a women’s race. But I also realize its not because they don’t support women’s race. It works both ways, and we need to show our support for their races by attending them — regardless of whether there is currently a women’s field. Even better, we should go out of our way to say “thank you” after the race to the promoters, officials and volunteers. If the promoters know that women are attending the races, they will eventually include a women’s race. I figure that in the meantime, if there isn’t a women’s field, its a great opportunity to ride with the men (and if possible, to do a masters race because they are fantastic bike handlers).
In the defense of the training series (but not the guy who organizes it, because he sounds like a jerk), I can’t remember the last training series that actually offered a women’s race. The key is that these are “training races,” and the goal is to challenge ourselves to get better. It does suck and may seem like a waste of time/money when we get shelled early on in the race. I’ve been in training races where I didn’t make it through the first corner (never mind an entire lap). I figure that if I get dropped, I get dropped, and I just try to make the best of it. PLUS the thrill of victory of being able to staying in the race with the boys is huge. I don’t think I stopped smiling for a week after the first time I stayed in with the men’s “A” group at a training race.
We all need to keep bike racing in perspective. Its a hobby, and the goal is to have fun. I figure that if anybody is paying attention to my results and judging me because I had a crappy race, they need to get a life.
“I’m sorry folks, but there is a great gulf in this dialogue. Kerry has been very forthcoming and obviously is extremely knowledgeable, but from reading Judi’s posts, I am wondering if she ever went to High School. Perhaps Kerry could provide some names of some books Judi could read first to get up to speed, and then come back and talk to Kerry.”
First Judi has to put up with douchebag Rick Hoeting and now she has to put up with this patronizing shit. People like this make me want to shoot myself. You can disagree with Judi’s tone or approach or method or whatever, but why not just come out and say so?
(Oh and P.S. Low Brow, that would be “lend” some books on the topic.) There, I beatcha to it, schoolmarm.
message for any who care to heed.
Less is more.
(kinda like ponies)
You are the one who played the race card in your lengthy diatribe, and you last remark shows just how racist you really are, but three degrees from where?, mail in certificate scammers? Your thin skin just reminds me of another Huckster looking for a beef, but if you are out of a job, come over and paint my kitchen.
I agree with others, that Judi frittered away Kerry’s goodwill. So be it, I am out of here too. The rest of these wankers can argue between themselves.
Hey E, wanna ride some ponies with me?
I do agree that more women need to come out to races (I’ve doine two in the past two weeks, and volunteered at another yesterday). But I also know (from starting and running a womens sports league, hosting womens’ hockey tournaments, and being a cyclist) tha engaging women in a male-dominated sport can be tough, for many reasons. If they don’t see their peers at races, its tough to make them feel comfortable, supported, etc. (especially those that start later in life and didn’t have the parents supporting them, etx.)
Does this mean that all the responsibility rests on the shoulders of promoters? No. It also requires efforts on our part (yes Mikey, its Miss Low Brow, not Mr.) This means encouraging our female friends to train more, race more. To not quit, even when its discouraging and we came in last place, even when people like Rick Hoeting tell us we suck, even when you’re dragging your ass behind a bunch of guys on your team group ride wondering if its worth it…
And Ack – my team has hideous kits. They do not go with my eyes at all. But I still wore mine on Saturday after working a race for five hours and again for 4 hours on my bike in the heat afterward. I would have gone out to obsess over gear on Sunday, but again, trained for another three hours and was just too tired. Didn’t even leave me any time to get my nails done in matching team colors. What’s a girl to do?
Tee hee! Aww Sarah… what is this about painting your kitchen? I already have a career I love. As mentioned before. But if you would like, we can discuss the difference between “playing the race card” and discussing inequality and the promotion of diversity and opportunities in cycling. I don’t know anything about playing cards. And as for my education… Like I said, I gawt me my bachhhelurs degrees at uh state cawledge. Nawt a privut skool. And my gradewate werk was dun at a lowly suthurn skool. Hence my opinions must not mattur. Rait? Mee and Joodi are just some gurls who like to ride bickes. My mom and dad are immmugrints, maybe yood like to offer them a job as maids in yer howse too? Ah bet they’d be real appreciatuve. Yoo are uh kind wom-an. I wud like to ride Ponees with you sumtime.
Low Brow – Just to be clear, my comment about uniforms was based on the frustration that there are lots of people (both men and women) who love to tell everybody that they are “bike racers” and to ride around in their team kits, but then they only show up to a handful of races. These are the same people who frequently obsess about buying bike gear for racing, but when asked whether they are going to an upcoming race, there is always an excuse (haven’t had enough time to train, worked too much over the week, need to clean house, blah, blah, blah). When I’m at the start line with only a few other women, it makes me wonder what all the other “bike racers” are doing.
Ack – My sense of humor doesn’t translate well sometimes. I wasn’t taking it personally. Just giving you grief. We had a race in town where we got the promoters to offer FREE regostration for women, and I went out and spent my money on prizes for the women (no cash prizes we allowed), and we still had only five or six ladies. Trust me, I know what you’re talking about. But I think the efforts must continue. My womens hockey team used to have to drag women onto the ice for games. After many years of consistent efforts, this program now has a full two teams, hosts a regional womens tournament (which is now so popular we are adding a second one to the calendar) and has a fantastic travel team that plays all over the country. And hockey is traditionally a male dominated sport. Cycling has a variety of different issues involved (prize payouts, etc) that come into play, but my point (I swear I have one) is that it takes a lot of consistent effort and hopefully, if people keep encouraging female participation, fighting for better payouts, better attendance, etc… then more women will get on board (or saddle) and start enjoying this awesome sport.
And yes, typos are in that post. I’m trying to paint kitchens while typing, its hard.
No Thanks, you’re too morose and odious for civil discourse. I won’t raise my glass with you.
Somebody talk to Low Brow, she’s lonely. There were good points made by others in this thread. I’ve been around the bike racing scene even longer then Kerry, but I have decided not enter the serious parts of the discussion other then to say Kerry is someone well worth listening to for advice. Some interesting replies made here for sure.
Does this mean I can’t paint your kitchen? :( I’m real lonely. I need someone to ride ponies with, too. Maybe that’s why I’m so morose.
@105 low brow, i’ll ride ponies with ya grrrrl. gnomey, you want to come too?
readers of DC, thank you for an awesome discussion. keep the fire BRIGHT and fight for what you want in your sport.
Reading through this reminds me of one of “Judi’s” team mates on Kenda. Silke Wunderwald.
One day this spring I headed down to the weekly training race on Wed night.
They have two races. An A race and a B race. B race is for 4/5 racers and beginners. Plenty of people get dropped from that race.
The A race is different. Pros, former national champions and plenty of cat 1s and 2s show up. There are 3s and 4s too. Plenty of the 4s are able to hang on with the Pros.
So there’s this big group of men, and Silke. She was out there animating, attacking, pulling back gaps, generally working harder than most of the men.
EVERYONE gets dropped on the road for the first few years. EVERYONE. Unless you’re some crazy genetic freak. EVERYONE.
It takes time and patience to figure the stuff out. It isn’t like mt biking where when you race, pretty much everyone gets a fucking medal. Mt biking is great, the racing scene just doesn’t reward hard work all that well unless you’re in a hyper competitive category.
Gnome is right.
One thing i’ve learned about the internet: sitting on your ass with a blog or a forum being negative don’t get you anywhere. Actually hurts things. Makes you feel good about yourself but that’s about it. You can joke with your buddies about being a tough douchebag on line and how all those assholes don’t get you or your life experience.
But in the end – ya gotta listen, and learn, and figure out how to make a positive change. Some promoters are douchebags but even the douchebag promoters do actually respond to a bit of sugar (or beer) better then they do when they get sprayed with vinegar.
Can we get to the important part of this already? …who’s sucking cock for cash?
did somebody say something about aero bars…..:
Lance has a cause. You have a cause. I have a cause. Some of us have a microphone waiting wherever we go. Some of us get a call from the president when we win a race. Most of us don’t.
Lance’s cause is cancer. However, it’s smoke blowing as far as I’m concerned because anyone with any sense knows that cancer is caused by two things combined:
improper care for the immune system to handle those carcinogens.
I’d like to tell Lance and all those breast cancer walkers and ribbon pushers that the only way we’re going to stop cancer is cut the cancer out of our lifestyles. Cut out the pesticides, the diesel stink, the ham-fisted tearing out of walls with asbestos sans masks, the new carpets…
All the research in the world ain’t going to stop cancer.
Back to the subject at hand – I doubt Lance can do anything about the state of women’s racing. I think that women could. I always thought that women were less involved in bike racing because at the bottom of it, bike racing is a dangerous and foolhardy glory chasing, ego stroking thing. Some women dig that; most don’t. Almost all men are seduced by it, though. That temptation to compete, that thrill of victory or being near to the victorious – it all comes from that side of us that we call warrior-spirit, it comes from war making. Bicycle racing is not a peaceful activity in that sense. I think that Lance and everyone like him are just addicts to that thrill; even after they stop and say they’ve had enough, they keep coming back. There are worse things to be hooked on, of course. It’s all relative. I still always will appreciate bicycle racing of all kinds.
lj, You’re smarter than that. There’s A LOT more to determining if someone may or may not get cancer than that. Those aren’t going to help your chances, but genetics and random chance also play fair sized roles, as do a bunch of things we haven’t figured out yet. There are people what will smoke and practically bathe in mutagen and never get cancer, then there are people who live healthy lives and get ovarian cancer at 18 (which happened to a good friend of mine). Be careful with your simplistic view about cancer. You’re almost saying it’s the fault of the person with cancer. Are you going to tell the 6yr old with leukemia that it’s their fault?
well put el jefe…
my girlfriend works in cancer genetics at the diagnostic level. genetics have everything to do with what types of cancer an individual is susceptible to and which treatments they will respond best to. certain genes mutate differently.
i also agree w/ lj though regarding the need to mitigate our exposures and the significance of said exposures.
Our local cx race has the highest paying purse for women in the country. Equal to men. Come race in Southampton. Ilovetoracecross@gmail.com
And FWIW the New England Verge Cyclocross series has a women’s series:
Well, yes- it’s not that simple and every pool of data has it’s outliers and anomalies. Yes, genetics have a role and no, it’s not a child’s fault if they have cancer. You’re taking my words and going too far in inferring it, with such a question.
I just find it fucking ridiculous that people latch on to a pack mentality about these fund raisers and walks when everyone uses a motor vehicle to get to that walk. When people fly around and drive around to fight cancer, it doesn’t fight cancer!! That’s obvious to me, but not to the pack mentality.
There was a time when I would have felt good about doing it too – I went on an 18 mile walk when I was in 6th grade for a charity thing that trashed my legs… all because I believed!
I saw a woman parking for one of those breast cancer rallies who drove a TURBO DIESEL F350 to bring her ass to the meeting place… that’s just too ridiculous for words. Big loud mouth people who dare not be questioned, that’s the problem with them.
Diesel particles are the #1 carcinogen in our environment, according to the EPA, and they’ve put out the money to do the research on that.
I suggested a while ago that Cancer will be divided up into two groups, much like Diabetes.
Type 1 totally not environmental, and Type 2 completely environmental.
The big difference is you can take care of your body with food and rest and what you eat and prevent cancer from happening even if you have Type 1 cancer.
That Anti-Cancer food book is a great place to start. the Angiogenesis TED talk is also something big. Lance’s foundation would reduced cancer by way more if they did food education instead of research.
so off topic but hey – it is a sound example and decent parallel. Misguided intentions – focus not on fixing what is broken, figure out why it breaks and keep it from breaking again.
Adding prize money to women’s fields is like throwing cancer drugs at the disease. Not always productive. Even throwing money/drugs at the problem of womens participation/cancer won’t fix the root, but you can start there WHILE fixing it and make it viable again.
Livestrong does research?
I don’t understand why Women’s cycling isn’t getting the respect it deserves either, but a lot of it is probably USA Cycling fault for not helping promoters push the sport more. I’ve been to National mountain biking events and I’m here to tell ya the women can haul ass just as hard as the men. I’d put good money on Georgia Gould, Katie Compton, and Willow Koerber against any cat1 or cat 2 man. I’m further dumbfounded as to why women’s road racing is virtually invisible to the public. It’s like it doesn’t even exists. I just don’t get it.
First off, Judi rocks and is sincere. I met her on the internet over music taste on another blog and ended up meeting her when we both did Ironman Louisville. She raced hard, cheered others on, and showed that she had a lot of class. I had a great time hanging with her and Dominic.
I doubt she would ever through the first punch, but the girl lived through the streets. I have no doubt she can take care of herself. And she is no shrinking violet.
I hate people who try to argue that because they have such and such degree, their answer is right. Logic needs no degree. Not to mention there may be multiple solutions, or a single solutions involving multiple strategies.
This is basically a chicken or the egg argument.
– Do you get more women racers by raising purses, or do you raise purses by getting more women races.
– Do you get more women’s races and divisions by getting more participants, or do you get more participants by having more women’s races and divisions.
Grass roots support will help. Fostering newcomers will have not hurt. Lowering the entry bar (financial) for young racers will help. Lots of stuff will help. However, do not ever doubt that raising hell about perceived disparities can help. Change never happens unless people voice their opinion and demand change. Speaking out, by any medium, is the only way to start change.
WELL SAID gttim. I’m with you 100% on all of the above. Judi is a friend of mine, and while her delivery at times lacks the diplomatic graces of other womens’ cycling advocates, her heart is in the right place, and she is fearless in willingness to stand in the line of fire as a result of her passion and outspoken opinions. If nothing else, girl’s got guts. And that’s why I like her.
“focus not on fixing what is broken, figure out why it breaks and keep it from breaking again.”
What a ridiculous nonsense statement. We’re not talking about a blown fuse in a car’s dashboard here. When ‘IT’ is broken, it needs ‘repair’.
If there is only one ‘unit’ then there is only one option – to fix what is broken. I love it how people use parables such as this to wrap words around some form of non-logic and make it sound like wisdom.
There was no need to hijack this thread (starting with LJ@111).
Please start a different article/thread, “cancer and its causes”.
Where do these women racers leave their purses, currently? Shouldn’t they carry them with them whilst cycling, like ready-made musette bags full of toiletries, snacks and perhaps muting mood stabilizers?
@ Mikey, who said: “In my experience, the AVERAGE female cyclist is less aggressive and less willing to suffer than the AVERAGE male cyclist.”
I’m a 47-y/o woman, a lifelong bike commuter and cyclotoruist who decided to finally try bike racing two years ago. Was I going to set the world on fire? Nope. Would I win a gold medal? Nope.
Then why do it?
To see what my body is capable of before I’m too old to find out.
I have lived with Crohn’s disease my whole life, but it was not properly diagnosed until I was in my early 30’s. I spent my childhood thinking that the constant fatigue and weight loss were somehow connected to a character flaw, a weakness of spirit that kept rearing its ugly head every time I tried to do something athletic. After my fourth trip to the hospital, the vice-principal of my high school suggested I not go out for sports anymore until I could “gain some weight and get stronger”. I continued to ride for transportation and fun, but I was always dreadfully slow and sometimes had to cut my trips short. Still, I kept riding because I loved it.
Many years later, after a correct diagnosis, two surgeries and finally dialing in a medical and dietary regimen that has allowed me to get my symptoms under better control, I now know that there was NEVER a character flaw, only a physical condition that had to be addressed.
My doctor is not super-thrilled about my racing, but is glad I’ve found a discipline (short-track) that keeps the suffering to a shorter time limit. This year I raced every single week of my local short-track series, finished fifth overall, and then went on to race at my state championships. I finished third out of three in the hardest race of my life, suffering and struggling to stay on my bike in too high a gear on the final climb to the finish line.
Did I mention that I race Womens’ Singlespeed?
I won’t ever beat you in a race, mister, but I’ve already won. And as long as I’m able to, I’m gonna come back and win some more, every effing time I swing my leg over my bike. Don’t tell me women don’t know about suffering. Spend a few days in MY body, and let’s see if your understanding of suffering changes at all.
hot damn, another asshole ripped straight the fuck open.
beth h. girlie, you are awesome for taking the time to comment here. keep racing, keep pedaling, and THANK YOU.
@ Judi. My pleasure. I hope you enjoy your racing! –bh
@beth h.,SS CX!! you are a superstar! i raced ONE cx race on a ss last year and got 4th (masters 35+). all my friends gave me shit and said i would have podium’ed if i had gears. you make me want to race ss now!
Judi — racing SS is free, and freeing, because you don’t have to do anything except Pedal. Your. Bike. A lot. Obviously, it would help if I was twenty years younger, and didn’t have my little poofy-outty middle-aged belly, and well, let’s not even discuss the Crohn’s; but the fact of the matter is that singlespeed is all about FLOW and when I do it right it almost feels like flying. (Plus, it reminds me of riding my BMX bike when I was 10 and that is a feeling I don’t get tired of remembering on a bike.) Which is why I will never race on a geared bike ever, even though, at this point, doing SS exclusively will certainly shorten my, ahem, “career”.
Don’t care. Love it, love it, love it.
If you’re going to set up a SS bike, try to use a frame with track ends (NOT standard road dropouts) so you have enough room fore/aft to dial in your chain tension. You CAN run a Soulcraft Convert or similar on a road frame but it won’t be a durable or feel as solid, IMHO. Give it a go!
@beth, i ride fixed too, rode ss cx last year, choose to have gears now though, for training. im only racing 2 races w/ gears and then im switching to ss for the cxfestival races (YOU inspired me) i wont win those races even if i race with gears.
we will for sure hook up at interbike, im at the ventian tues/wed and am getting hitched sometime while we’re there. CX vegas for sure!!!
Hey Judi, “what did I get and what am I sill getting?” Let me answer that for you, “PRAISE!!!!” I cannot tell you how many people including women (yes women too) have come up to me and praised me for my stance in dealing with you, your unprovoked actions and your vulgarity. You deal in black and white and that’s it. You ask everyone to see your point yet attack others for expressing theirs? Many prominent figure heads of cycling in our area call your views, “a cancer.” I have chosen to keep quiet until now to let you do exacly what you did and that is self destruct. Its been 3 months and you are still ranting over the same issues without anything constructive to add. All the screaming for womens races yet you do less than 1/3 of them yourself (locally). I do not see you pre reg’d for Friday’s womens only class either. I believe that you live your life for the sole purpose of being an inflamitory person. There is much hate in your heart and I pitty you for having to suffer with it. Being called a douche bag by you and countless others who have never even shared a single fleeting thought with me is priceless. I have been attacked by people who don’t know me or what caused the “shitstorm” as you call it. What I have learned from the whole experience is that there are a lot of key board jockeys out there who really need to start living life instead of hiding in their solitude behind a computer finding countless ways on how to try and destruct or tarnish others reputations while they themselves play armchair quarterback pointing out everybody elses faults. As I said once before, “why don’t you stop complaining and be a part of the solution instead of the problem.” You want more races but yet won’t attend the ones we have already? That seems relatively rediculous and quite frankly to steal the word from all your fans, “douchy.” Attend the womens only races and prove to the promoters that it is a viable category (market) and supply and demand will work to your favor. I think you will find life more pleasant if you took the time to praise someone instead of attacking them all the time. I will start first…”Judi you seem to have an exhausting ammount of energy that could be put to great use helping others.” Where it goes from here is your call. You choose your own destiny and I will not allow you to tarnish my name from here on for juvenile amusement and childish antics. For all the rest of you Rick Hoeting haters, good call on making a judgement based on a one sided blog riddled with out of contex quotes and erroneous information. Oh yes their are quotes attributed to me that were not said or written by me. What do they call this? Lible. The funny thing is, all the “haters” hide behind fake names or unidentifiable user ID’s and when confronted to speak about the issues, refuse to even foster a legitimate conversation. One thing me and Judi have in common is that we aren’t afraid of being ourselves. Don’t bash me for doing the very thing you praise Judi for, speaking my mind. For all her points there is a legitimate counter point to also consider. For you haters who want to poke and bash and then hide…All I have to say, “what a weak pathetic shameful existence.” For the rest of you finding me is very easy; in person or for those who are more timid, online. The sad truth is, nobody will contact me but you will still poke and prod even though you have no clue what really transpired. Just make sure you take the time to find out who you are poking and proding though because these words do have consequences and my patience for the topic is growing thin. For those who aren’t impressed with me…great, I wasn’t trying to impress you. I don’t even know you. Matter of fact I don’t even care about you. The only reason I am here today is because a friend emailed the link to me making fun of half of you and your inflamitory posts. As I read through the posts it is so easy to identify the people who are productive in society and the ones who aren’t. You guys and girls are funny. Thanks for making me smile tonight. You make my life seem…well…just a little brighter knowing that I don’t have it so bad. I could be like you hating anyone and everything that poses a challenge in your life. I look forward to the next day and the challenges that life is going to trow my way. Speaking of challenges…
Oh and Judi, next time I see you…I am going to speak to you. I am not going to politely avoid you anymore. I am going to force you to either keep hating me or to actually learn about me and find out who I really am and what I am about. As long as you ride a bike or show up at races that I am at you will be forced to see me and hear my voice if only to say, “Hi Judi.” No more computer bull. I will deal with any additional contraversy like most humans, in person.
Lastly for those who speak of Karma, I would like to thank you all because I did get my just rewards. Sure I wrecked the bike after the shitstorm but Karma kept me from getting hurt and then allowed me to out perform any and all expectations I set for myself. For not racing in 15 years I had a great season back. I achieved all my personal and team goals set pre season. I hope you all share in the same positive Karma I experienced this year, it’s been wonderful. By the way, you create your own Karma. Crashing sucked, winning rocked! You can see those pics online. If you aren’t impressed by the winning then maybe you will be impressed by the crashing. Either way there should be some type of impression for you all to blog about endlessly.
AKA “Douche Bag”
I have to admit the nick name does make me smile a little bit.
rick hoeting – aka DOUCHE –
damn, and i actually felt BAD for you at the cleves TT this summer, when i had to BEG dominic NOT to say or do anything to you – remember? he stared you down so bad you walked back to your truck, all alone, and no one clapped when your PR was read….remember that nite? i actually texted a few girls that nite, telling them how bad i felt for you. you know what they told me? YOU made your bed.
you wanna say you didn’t write those emails? i still have them. which ones would you like me to resend to you, there are about 95 of them total, still sitting in my gmail inbox.
and those cat 4/5 podiums? you *should* be proud of those wins! wow! did you find a new team to race for? i know reeser wasn’t interested. not too many people want to be associated with you, did you know that? i guess that makes us both “cancers” in this wonderful cycling community we have.
so ya, dominic is super excited for you to come over and introduce yourself the next time you us. we both are. i’ll be racing at kings CX on SAT the 18th.
hope to see you soon rick!
i love this place. and ponies.
Rick, two words: Paragraph Break
What a long winded piece of drivel. Like the emails I got from Rick. Shit, he must have been writing everybody. Douche bag needs to get a life.
Hey Rick. You need to look up the word ‘paragraph’.
Damn. gttim beat me to it.
Can you all grow up? Rick, there was no reason to bring this back up in this forum. A reasonable discussion out of the public eye could have smoothed this over. Judi, quit threatening rick through your S.O. It’s idiotic behavior and has no place in the cycling world. You’re both adults. Act like it you fucking twatwaffles.
Damn, the comments I see when I check in to DC in general have become quite depressing as of late.
I’m going to ride. Catch y’all in the fall.
“prominent figure heads of cycling”? Talk about the tallest midgets in the room. We’re talking about riding fucking bikes here. Just because you and your friends don’t have any other priorities in your lives doesn’t really lend significance to the situation.
Ponies. And rainbows.
This is the “thread that will not die.” I almost feel sorry for Rich H. at this point. He’s a little late to the party, but he did show up with a full bottle of Jack Daniels and a bag of powdered donuts. Game on, son.
…classic, gianni, absolutely classic, all things considered…
…“the runaway rainbow w/ crystal princess, my little pony”…not only that but we’re into “a bonus episode”…
…aren’t we ever…
Yes, cancer girl. You only raced 10 or so races in this, your first season. Pathetic. And those half dozen races you volunteered at this past spring? Selfishiness knows no limit with you. And the upcoming cyclocross events you are working with the organizers on? I mean, seriously, some people contribute nothing. And I really hate how your bike mechanic boyfriend is always giving free tune ups and giving away parts, wheels, etc. And how you go on rides with beginners to help them out with their training… ugh. The worst part is how you keep having opinions of your own. I find this highly disturbing.
Now be a good girl and go get me a Coors Lite before I head out and shoot some ponies.
So how do y’all feel about midget rasslin’? Now that the thread’s gone to shit, I mean. 142 comments? Dang!
…your talkin’ about mental midgets, right ???…
…or is that even not politically correct terminology ???…
…’cuz there are a lotta little brains working away on any site @ any given time…
Truth be told, bgw, I pretty much lost track. I was just hopin’ someone else might have been payin’ attention.
Not me. I haven’t set a PR since 1994 and I ride down to the TT on my bike and don’t own a truck. I hope you aren’t staring down the wrong person? I think that is Jeremy. He is a real nice guy. I am the fat guy who looks out of place.
I will be there @ Kings and will re-introduce myself respectfully and yes I know what I wrote because I have the emails too and no it wasn’t 95 from me. 2 quotes are either wrong or not written by me and all of them are snipped out of context. I really don’t care unless I have to keep addressing the issue. I am still with QCW so no I don’t need a new team and yes I am relatively proud of my placings this year. And yes, you are correct, nobody wants me on their team either. That should answer all your questions. Not looking for pitty just trying to be more grown up and man up to my mistakes. I can’t change your views but I can change my actions. You want to keep hating that is your call. Hey aren’t we both cat 4’s? wouldn’t you be proud of winning too? Just saying…
I notice that when anyone offers a contrary opinion in this forum they get attacked anyway so I expected much of the same.
See you Sat or Sun.
Low Brow***I never criticized Judi for volunteering or racing. But you did hit one of the quotes attributed to me that was never said by me. For that you win the powder donuts I brought with the Jack for the party.
gttim***your a real piece of work. I haven’t written anyone in 3 months. Gonna leave it alone until this blog was sent to me rehashing the old stuff. Love your comments though. A new paragraph starts a new thought. I guess the thought was too long or complexed for you to understand so you just made fun of it instead. You make fun of Hemingway for his run on sentences too? If anyone needs a life it is you! The end.
I like that
Hemingway could actually write. Are you comparing yourself to him? Good writers can break with convention. That would not include you. There were several obvious paragraph breaks in there, even though it was pretty much a rambling mess.
You just don’t get it, do you? Judi gives far more to cycling and others than you ever will- Low Brow said it very well. She is far more respected. She has overcome things you could never even imagine. You simply do not compare. Get over it.
thanks for keeping this one going guys, this thread is everything that is wrong and RIGHT with blogs…just waiting for Godwin’s Law to hold true
Back in June it was:
“I actually retired from cycling after racing 9 years pro/am with the likes of Landis, Hinkappe, Gagiolli, Phinny, Alex Stida, etc. I only came back to coach cat 4/5 riders after being asked too, and it’s hard to do it from the sidelines so I had to degrade to ride with them.”
(email sent to Robin from Rick on June 23, 2010)
“For not racing in 15 years I had a great season back.” [wait a sec… didn’t he say he retired nine years ago? I’m confused…]
“I am the fat guy who looks out of place.”
“I haven’t set a PR since 1994”
“Hey aren’t we both cat 4’s? wouldn’t you be proud of winning too? Just saying…”
So which is it? The former GREAT who raced with the pros, and just came back to coach 4s and 5s, or some humble “fat guy who looks out of place” who is just proud to podium in Cat4?