by 
by ‘them’ i mean the big 3. Seriously. If they tried to make a better car, they wouldn’t be in this mess. I have sympathy for all the workers who are getting canned, losing their pensions, having factories shut down… But fuck the Big 3. They chose to stick with a post WW2, ‘American Dream’ mentality, instead of thinking of the future. They chose to give the people bigger, less-fuel efficient autos, instead of saying ‘You know what? Grow up and stop acting like you are OWED something.” They chose to not make anything that would compete with the Nissans, Hondas and other non-American auto makers were giving. (People DO watch their pocketbooks, now as well as say… 10 years ago.)
I say let them fail and give THIS guy the billions to start making cars. Made in America, with American Ingenuity.
Then there’s also Tesla. Take your pick.
—bp
also : Let’s not get into the debate/discussion about battery life and the drain on the grid. The grid needs to be overhauled, we all know it. It’s part of ‘infrastructure’ that Obama guy keeps blabbing on about. And don’t get started on battery life either. If Apple can make 80 gigs of music that fit on a postage stamp sized device, those guys can develop a better battery. Nuff said.
by 
Maybe you should try to think beyond your narrow views, and think of the millions of Americans jobs you don’t give a crap about. It’s easy to think of the Big 3 as just faceless companies, but being from SE Michigan, it’s what puts food on the table and bikes in the garage of about 70% of my friends and biking buddies.
Maybe you don’t care about keeping those jobs, but I do.
Ummm, lemme get this straight-You blather on about electric cars but you won’t discuss battery life or the plain simple fact that in the vast majority of cases, recharging simply moves the carbon footprint from the tailpipe to the power station. Interesting…
Apparently you didn’t read or comprehend what was in the first bit.
“I have sympathy for all the workers who are getting canned, losing their pensions, having factories shut down…”
THAT MEANS I do think it sucks. I do think those people got the shaft. I do think they are facing even MORE hard times.
BUT
If they gave the billions to these two companies, then we could reBUILD our auto manufacturing base and SAVE those jobs. Maybe even CREATE more of them.
I think you need to get over your knee-jerk reaction when you feel threatened by someone’s opinion, and maybe think about what it is they are saying. Instead of going into attack-defense mode, take a second and ask yourself…”Is what this one person on a website dedicated to bikes, beer and booze saying… Is it a viable alternative? Is it a loosely-cobbled-together bunch of ideas that, if properly implemented, could save jobs and maybe be a way to move into a new way of auto-manufacturing?”
But then, you probably are a Bush fan too.
—bp
(see how easy it was to stick that in, even though I don’t know a thing about you? Goes both ways, dude.)
i spent 11 years in that place called michigan… and i’m with bp on this…
hearing about line workers making more than i’ll ever make in a year doing completely unskilled work, owning boats, vacation homes, trailer loads of ORVs… i saw that as the worst of the big three… and the only way to kill that unsustainable culture is to let the big 3 fail…
but then i’m not there anymore to see if that attitude and lifestyle has really changed or it is just waiting for the good times to come back…
So now we’re all gonna drive golf carts? I can hardly wait.
So now we’re all gonna drive golf carts? I can hardly wait.
Well, we might be, you self-entitled fuck. It might be time to reconsider your lifestyle if that’s going to be a problem for you. The days of 2 SUVs in every driveway for the daily drive to Costco and the treadmill at the gym are soon-to-be over.
When did this site become a den of trolling car-culture apologists?
“tailpipe to the power station”.. Yes, because it might be easier to control the pollution from one source than from thousands! Or, dare we suggest that eventually some of this can come from solar or wind. At this point yest much of our energy comes from coal, but what the hell is the problem that you have Dave with maybe making a switch? Or, does your generation refuse to actually change after all these years you have spent sucking at the corporate welfare teat?
Bike punk I just want to say that you’re a slight bit of a jack ass and retard for reasoning as well as a bumper sticker you throw an argument without a premise or foundation.
And throwing Tesla for the electric argument fucking stupid it is a rich boys play toy just as a their collaborative Mission who makes high end electric motorcycles.
As for line workers getting paid a shit ton that is the only way you can keep competent workers in a miserable, repetitive, and or meaningless job. Look at any large company that mass produces they all do the same thing retard. Hell the bike industry does the same thing and that’s why
You have companies like Ellsworth looking at going down the shitter.
And before you bitch about fuel economy do a little homework before you go on a stereotypical rant on a subject you obviously have no right or background to speak upon if you knew what you were talking about then please carry on and if your upset about out dated designs whine about Honda and euro markets hell even china’s autos we as a country do have the tightest standards for emissions and most stringent auto production policies.
BP STFU! And go chill to Lily Allen’s song “Fuck Off”
Thanks J Proff and on a random side note hope you have a good rest of your weekend.
buffalo_snapper=welfare=OBAMA!!!
people that complain that the big 3 aren’t competitive with foreign automakers generally haven’t owned one or driven a new domestic car since the 80’s/90’s.
Let the car companies fail, let the banks fail, let AIG fail. The ones that deserve to survive will make it, the economy will take a hit but come back stronger.
If you want to get rich, you have to take risks, if you take risks, sometimes you fall….. let the weak ones go away so the strong ones can survive and get stronger.
I’ll say this much – you can certainly create electricity in a low emission fashion. Hydro even nuclear. You don’t have to burn coal.
Unfortunately BP, what you are calling for is a complete “paradigm shift” in American culture. We are different from the rest of the world when it comes to what automobiles represent to us. I agree that the BIG 3 have majorly dropped the ball, but does it not occur to you that much of the financial burden placed upon them came from the overwhelming power of the unions, which are driven by the same corrupt corporate bigwig mentality that heads up the 3? Only they are under the guise of being there “for the people.” Kinda like the Democratic party.
Whereas someone like myself and the readers of this blog might find it a possibility to actually exist without a car (or curtail the usage of it), that’s like telling most of the American public there will only be one channel on TV from here on out. In the meantime, I will continue to exercise my right to my car, and the right to buy whatever car I want. Isn’t that an underlying priciple of economics…giving the consumer what they want? Look at the sales of hybrids right now…now that gas is $2/gallon…DEAD.
Finally…don’t make the mistake of thinking only the “line workers” will suffer if the 3 go down…my company and thousands of other small businesses in Tier 1 manufacturing would take a huge hit as well…I think we’d all be surprised at how deep the influence of automobile mfg runs.
Jackoff Prob–Please explain how I equal welfare? Is it that every time you see the word “change” that you have a neo-con pavlovian response that Rush has implanted into your non-skeptical mind that change is bad. Stay the course, do not accept that mistakes mean change in direction. No bud. I have been a proponent of alternative energy resources for the past 30 some years of my life. I just don’t see why electric vehicles are so bad in Dave’s mind. He didn’t watch the video apparently because a electric car turning 11.9 seconds in the quarter mile is damn fast. And it sure the hell ain’t no golf cart.
Oh yeah, here is my equation for you since we are doing that thing now.
jacob prob=prick
Sorry for the confusion sir buffalo humper you were talking about the welfare teat, and since you were so consumed with sucking your own teat at the moment congrats on the 30 years of sucking your self nice job with the intellectualization. I do not dislike you or have problems with alternative energy I personally dislike gas it is inefficient but out infrastructure is so large we must ween away from it and solar and wind is far less cost effective and not remotely efficient when you compare the cost of energy consumption vs production. Though solar has become much more promising in the last 5 years.
I stated that Tesla is a play toy meant to compete with sports cars and not with the issue company’s like smart are trying to tackle.
And that you obviously bitched about corporate welfare when your views are so blatantly obvious that you advocate welfare in political views but not business practices?
Thank you for the prick comment!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2486235784907931000
Did I just make KG agree with me ?!!?!
WTF is this site COMING TO ?!!?!
BD wasn’t our interstate highway system originally developed as a means for rapid mobilization for our military? Food for thought…. and a plane never hit the pentagon it was all fake.
J Proff– I still don’t get where you are getting at my love of welfare. Never personally used it. If I lost a job, I just got another one or two to cover the costs of living. Nowhere have I advocated for it and I often dismayed at the love some have for the gov’t hand outs instead of spirit of the hard working individualist. Do I have some juxtaposing view points with in my own mind, hell yeah. In regards to Tesla, they do have a sedan that is slated for 2011 production that is aimed at a lower price point. But, consider that often technology does trickle down from the high end to the lower price points. I.E. Shimano XTR to LX. I am just jerking your chain somewhat because of the anonymity allowed via the interweb. But, I still am not seeing the connection you are making with me and the welfare system. Yes, I mentioned it and maybe it was out of context.
Oh yeah…at least Tesla is building something instead of GM’s continual dangling the VOLT out there and promising its release.
While it’s true that moving the carbon footprint elsewhere (you’re most likely still burning something to get the electricity). It’s being done at much higher efficiency levels than in an internal combustion engine. ie a step forward.
Did anyone actually watch the video about the Datsun?! That guy does deserve the billions that the fuck ups in Detroit are getting. How many billions did the big 3 spend on lobbying against better fuel efficiency instead of just spending the money on R & D? They fucking deserve to fail. I agree with BP, spend the money on alternative fuels instead of pissing it down the drain. The big 3 are going to fail anyway, so why are we wasting so much money on them?!
This is a fucking cycling website. I’m for more money on bikes, not fucking cars!
“Self entitled fuk”? Well, I work my ass off at a damned good job. Guess I’m entitled to whatever I can afford. It’s still America, and will be for awhile no matter what the scrawny Kenyan at 1600 says. My lifestyle is my own damned business.
2 SUVs? More like an SUV, a van, a big old smelly pickup truck with no smog plumbing on its huge v8 and a sedan. Garge full of bies too, dontchaknow. Ain’t about to give any of that up in the forseeable future. Costco? Never been. Never used a treadmill either. I get my workout on my fixed Crosscheck (type of bike in case you didn’t know) thankyouverymuch.
Trolling? Pot. Kettle. Black.
Your lifestyle is your business. Hence the reason I lean liberal on social issues. I pretty much don’t care what you do. Not in a negative sense, in a “what right to I have to tell you what to do” sense.
Now, big ass SUVs are a problem for all of cyclists. We’ve all almost been hit by some jackass that has no idea how to handle a vehicle of that size and weight – stopping distance, turning radius, etc.
Bikes belong. We should be spending money on bike lanes. Build more of them, make them safe, and provide alternatives the cycling in the roadway… People will use them. We all know that to be true.
Rant over…
Jonny, my SUV is a Honda Element. Sucker turns on a dime, has the best brakes of anything I’ve ever driven and the 4WD works seamlessly and unobtrusively. Did I mention it’s a certified low emission vehicle?
My truck is a different story. 1988 Dodge Ram. It’s a handful. I drive it accordingly. But put me in an H2 and I’ll be the same careful and attentive driver I always am.
SUVs are not the problem. Jackass drivers are. Take all the SUVs away tomorrow and the jackass drivers will abound. Still, ain’t it odd how that kind of driver tends to be drawn to that kind of vehicle?
Oh, and Jonny-If your attitude on social issues is as you describe, it’s not liberal. It’s conservative. There may be hope for you.
Dave,
I know what you’re saying. Reagan said it as “I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism.”
That may be well and true, but what passes for Conservative (in my lifetime) is not Libertarian. The Religious Right hijacked the Republican Party. Or, the GOP gave it to the Religious Right. Or, the GOP pandered to the Religious Right for votes and ignored their more centrist constituents in the process. We could go on and on with it.
I call myself “socially liberal” or “liberal on social issues” because it paints the most accurate picture of my world view in the least amount of words, both in speaking and writing. The exact analysis is lacking as, arguably, the words fail to convey what it closest to in a real sense: a Libertarian viewpoint.
Are there any viable Libertarian political candidates? No. So pick whom you feel most closely aligned with and go from there.
update: forgot to mention, I’d hardly call a Honda Element an “SUV”. Same type of issue as above really. Most of us mean a big, V8 monster on a truck frame when we say “SUV”. e.g., F150 plus back seats makes an Explorer.
people that complain that the big 3 aren’t competitive with foreign automakers generally haven’t owned one or driven a new domestic car since the 80’s/90’s.
i near pissed myself laughing seeing “wow! does 30mpg!” ads in the US last year. my eurocar does 65mpg easily (common rail diesel). It’s roomy enough for four adults (or three adults & three bike) & will do 115 mph (although that wasn’t on the public highway officer).
When we were over we hired a Jeep Cherokee POS which did 20mpg max and made my old Land Rover POS look like it was just off the F1 grid.
I refuse to enter into this discussion as a proponent of either political party. BUT, to address the original point of this thread before it was hijacked into a series of ‘anti-your beliefs’ diatribes, I think the auto companies should not pushed off the edge. Reading stories of the financial problem leads to the term ‘systemic risk’; you’ve all hopefully considered this. I believe the Obama administration is handling this well enough, in theory. The government can revitalize the companies, jobs, complementaries, and the goddam bankers while mandating changes. Our car companies should be manufacturing autos that are more American made than toyotas and are more practical than shopping utility vehicles and 16mpg sedans. I am all for jumping your excursion across the Mississippi, but it is time for some social responsibility, people.
that being said, stop driving so much and make lifestyle changes or shut up and pay for it.
Small Gov would rock ass, but seems it aint happnin. The one good thing resulting from this winter recession is that some people are more aware than they were during the latest “boom”. Big banks and archaic automakers are crying uncle (sam). Cars are scarier than ever on the roadways to cyclists as of late. BDJ knows because some drunk fuck thought he was a drivethrough. People drive like ass partly because the vehicles they’re in give them a false sense of velocity. Then add in all the twitter twats out there and the common commuting cyclist is another biker down. Stop the madness. dave the buying power of the US dollar is not in your hands. Ya might have to live with the in laws if shit hits the fan.
Buffalo it was me being more of a retarded jackass for the sake of me being one. And as for CRD engines that is all consumers to blame for letting a few auto makers fuck ups in the past with adaptations to gas engines ex gm but they have made some very valid efforts to push CRD tech dodge, jeep, and gm especially all offer it in their foreign markets but the sales and higher sticker prices detract from domestic markets as they say vote with your wallet and make it count.
A few points –
*The car in the video is not able to pass the laws required for crash safety standards in the US for new cars sold. Also, it’s range at 110 mph was roughly 1/4 of a mile. Cool as hell, but not relevant to the needs of the average consumer.
*Letting the Big 3 fail will not simply destroy 3 companies, but the entire supply chains they have built up to manufacture cars in the US, and most likely many other parts of the world. This supply chain is in fact the backbone of the entire manufacturing done in the world today.
It is this same supply chain that will be needed to create the next generation transportation and that will not occur in as timely of way if it is destroyed and then rebuilt; if it would even be possible.
*Electric cars – Um, the eastern seaboard is primarily powered by Coal. I think it is about 80%, but I’m not sure on that. It is not a cleaner form of fuel, and switching to it to move people around would be devastating to the ecology.
*Electric cars – So, how does that bike get to the bike shop again? Oh yeah, by ways of a Diesel Truck which got it’s load from a Diesel powered Boat. Maybe we need to look at things in a macro level and not just trying to make ourselves get all fuzzy.
*Feeling fuzzy – Go do the fucking math on the Carbon Footprint of a Tesla, or a Pimus, or whatever bullshit car you want to reference. Then go do the same fucking math on the impact of buying a 1990 Geo Metro off Craigslist for about $1000. Guess which comes out on top? That is even before you add such radical fuel improvement steps like a tune up and a K&N air filter.
He said K&N Air Filter.
The big three are failing. I think we are speaking with our wallets…If I were a rich, though, I’d buy them up and put those folks to work making something good like those “warm fuzzies” you’re talking about. We can power cars on “warm fuzzies” can’t we?
Techical issues about vehicles aside, what are we talking about? Oh, yea, the bailout. The common reason is jobs. Recall that UPS (yea, the delivery people) employs more people than GM, Chrysler and Ford COMBINED. Why spend billions to “save” a bunch of unsusatinable jobs, when we could use that to create clean economy jobs and improve our economy. When you build a car, you are still importing oil to run it (and, in the process, exporting trillions of dollars). Build a wind turbine and the job, the maintenance and the clean energy stays in the US. What’s wrong with that?
Because, as others have said, we’re not just talking about the big 3. We’re talking about the millions of other people that form that basis for our remaining manufacturing base in the United States. Being a former automotive engineer, I have seen the good sides of the market, and the downsides, the down being that I was laid off last month because of the lack of sales. Now, let the big 3 fail, and there are a lot of towns and cities that would basically cease to exist because they’d be shut down. We’re not just talking about the big 3, we’re talking about the millions upon millions of people who make parts (tier 2, tier 2, and tier 3 vendors) that rely on car manufacturers to put food on the table. It’s really easy to say, let them fail, and if we did, we’d be in a much bigger mess than we are now. I suspect unemployment would spike well into the double digits.
That being said, US companies are currently making good cars. Ford for example, has had top rated consumer quality awards for some of their newer cars, higher rated than Toyota, Honda, and others. Ford makes a very good higher MPG car called the Focus. And it has sold well. It’s not so easy to go from an SUV/Truck based manufacturing model, as lots of the companies have had to do, and it also takes time. If you’ve never been involved with it, re-tooling just one car assembly plant can take months, and sometimes more than a year. It’s not easy to make major changes, say, going from making trucks, to moving to making compact cars. Basically, the entire plant would have to be reworked.
Another issue we have currently is that we don’t place tariffs on cars being imported into the US from countries such as Japan and Korea. In reverse though, trying to sell a US made car in Japan or elsewhere overseas, we see a huge tax burden on the people who would like to buy said vehicles, and instead, they go for vehicles that are taxed less than US made, or US company made cars. Same thing with China. There is a gigantic market there for our vehicles, but the tariffs applied to incoming from the US are too high to make the vehicles affordable for the people of that country.
If we applied tariffs to foreign vehicles made outside of the US, we’d sell more locally produced cars in the US. There was always a threat of doing this, which is why Toyota built various assembly plants in the US.
If the big 3 go down, it’ll be extremely bad. Most of the people that I know, would be out of work. And this tirade about unions is unfair in my opinion, mostly because the unions have conceded to the companies over the last decade or so, to try and save jobs, and they have taken cuts in pay, and benefits, and pensions. And the familiar tirade of a union worker over extended in buying homes, cars, boats, and such is a bunch of BS as well. I know plenty of union guys, including my father when he was working, that live well within their means, and don’t make as much money as you guys think that they do. We hear the oft quoted $70/hour, but they don’t make anywhere near that. Starting pay is normally around $15-$20 / hour.
Mr. giantcu92 #36 makes a ton of sense.
I spent a few years selling machine tools into the Midwest. Tier one and twos were the bulk of the business, so I feel that I have some basis for making comments on the state of the U.S. auto industry. Here’s the deal regarding jobs:
UPS jobs are service jobs, adding little of value to the world. They tend to require minimal training and offer minimal wages. The country won’t stay on top by delivering packages to each other.
The European and Asian carmakers employ Americans, but they see them as trained apes. The profit goes offshore. The IP (intellectual property) patents and technology stay offshore, enriching Europeans and Asians. These too are jobs that will not make this nation great.
Like it or not, American companies should be designing and building cars here is the U.S. with American engineering, R&D and yes, PROFITS. If the government continues to offer tax breaks for fat-ass trucklets and we continue to buy them, we get what we deserve. That’s not the automakers’ fault at all. I say, put some teeth into CAFE mileage standards and tax automotive petrol up to $4/gal. Then the Euros and Asians can all suck our fat American cocks.
I’m not quite ready to concede third-world status, are you?
Mikey
giantcu92 you are the fucking man thank you! Some one gets it here thank you to Ryan and mikey to the K&N thing was a bit retarded though. On a side not K&N filters actually have a issue with owners over oiling them which actually hurts engine performance.
You guys are retarded! K&N filters are THE BOMB!!!!
My homies say that a K&N filter adds almost as much bomb diggety horsepower as a fat, chrome exhaust tip. Why fuck with remapping the ignition and fuel injection or porting and polishing the cylinder head(s) when removing the muffler and adding an exhaust tip makes your penis just as big?
Mikey, Your homies are incorrect. A chrome exhaust tip does nothing to increase gas flow. A clean air filter makes a big difference in an engines ability to breath, which makes it run more efficiently. K&N filters are proven to have better flow than the standard type. Some cars benefit more than others, from this increase. But my favorite benefit is that they are not disposable like most. When it gets dirty, it doesn’t go to a landfill. It gets serviced and used again and again. You never need to replace it. Comes with a million mile warranty, which will outlast any vehicle I’ve ever owned. (Effects to ones penis may vary!)
Also, removing mufflers doesn’t help efficiency in most cases. I tried it once. Car wasn’t any faster, and my penis was not any larger. However, upon accelerating, when between 2200 and 2500 RPM, it tickled my corn hole a little, which was kind of cool. I didn’t sport the chrome exhaust tip though. Maybe that’s all that I was missing to complete the racing package on my Subaru Forester???
Flanders is righteous. K&N filters are bombdiggidy.
While Mr. Flanders is indeed righteous, I think it’s possible that he missed the sarcasm in my post #40.
I do like the part about removing the muffler tickling his cornhole at 2250 rpm. I’ll make sure to mention this to the next dipshit kid in a tired, two-liter, front-drive Asian coupe with huge, stupid (usually cracked and poorly-painted) plastic moldings screwed on over the bumpers… and of course a chrome exhaust tip.
I always want to ask if their huge, stupid towel rack, er, rear wing helps address an oversteer condition, and express surprise that their front-drive car suffers from such nervousness… or if their ground effects are flat or tunneled, and how they address the chassis’ resultant pitch-sensitivity while cornering.
Nah.
Tickle your cornhole? Son, back in nineteen hundred and ought 73 I had a 1966 Plymouth Satellite two door sedan. Slant six and three on a tree.
Youthful indescretions left me without a driver’s license, so I gave the car to my dearest best friend. He dropped a breathed-on 383 and four speed in there. The change was more than making it faster. Every passenger’s dick became hard and/or every pussy became wet when that car went through the gears.
Yes, those were the days.
dave, there may be hope for you yet… The roar of an old MOPAR is something to behold.
You liberals are unbelievable. Socialism is all about taking care of the 49% of the population that pays less than 15% of the tax burden, and the top 1% of the population that is getting all of the Bush/Obama sweetheart deals. That will always secure 51% of the electoral vote. The 70% slice in the middle (i.e. the middle and upper middle class) is being left out in the cold. Obama’s motivation is clear, save the Unions at any cost. The overpaid, uneducated, lazy, two new cars in the garage with the boat card carrying union employee. These guys have been designing and manufacturing an inferior product for decades. I will take one thing to my grave…everyone will regret voting for OZBAMA!
Aren’t the union workers middle class?
isn’t the two cars and a boat middle class?
49 + 1 = 50. not 51.
70% + 1% + 49% = more than 100%
Oh, I get it. You’re fucking with me.
I was having trouble with the math on that one too, Gnome. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I sometimes have trouble figuring out when people are joking around, or being serious on this site.
Math? Fuck math; I’m drunk.
About another hour and 10 minutes of math for me….. Then I will get drunk!
And go for a ride!
Elon Musk and Tesla Motors are a sad, sad, fucking joke. I don’t understand why anyone takes them seriously anymore.
http://jalopnik.com/5064966/tesla-to-finally-notify-detroit-workers-today-they-were-laid-off-two-days-ago
http://valleywag.gawker.com/5071621/tesla-motors-has-9-million-in-the-bank-may-not-deliver-cars
http://valleywag.gawker.com/5164035/tesla-ceo-in-digital-witch-hunt
http://valleywag.gawker.com/5160624/teslas-motormouth-marketer-dodged-deposit-dilemma
Well done great post haha!