Then seizing him, they led him away and took him into the house of the high priest…

I got a text message this morning that read, “Today is the crucifixion of Cancer Jesus.”

Statement From USADA CEO Travis T. Tygart Regarding The U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team Doping Conspiracy

October 10, 2012

Today, we are sending the ‘Reasoned Decision’ in the Lance Armstrong case and supporting information to the Union Cycliste International (UCI), the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), and the World Triathlon Corporation (WTC). The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.

The evidence of the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team-run scheme is overwhelming and is in excess of 1000 pages, and includes sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the US Postal Service Team (USPS Team) and its participants’ doping activities. The evidence also includes direct documentary evidence including financial payments, emails, scientific data and laboratory test results that further prove the use, possession and distribution of performance enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong and confirm the disappointing truth about the deceptive activities of the USPS Team, a team that received tens of millions of American taxpayer dollars in funding.

Together these different categories of eyewitness, documentary, first-hand, scientific, direct and circumstantial evidence reveal conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy. All of the material will be made available later this afternoon on the USADA website at www.usada.org.

Read the rest here: http://www.usada.org/cyclinginvestigationstatement.html.

Additional articles I recommend:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444799904578048352672452328.html?mod=WSJ_hps_LEFTTopStories.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/sports/cycling/agency-details-doping-case-against-lance-armstrong.html.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/usada-outlines-armstrong-evidence-in-case-file_256450.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usadas-reasoned-decision-on-lance-armstrong-follows-the-money-trail.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/six-former-armstrong-usps-teammates-receive-bans-from-usada.
http://www.georgehincapie.com/news/Statement-from-George-Hincapie/.

I’m going to go ride my bike. Goodbye, Cancer Jesus.

Update: Hat tip to Gypsy for the link to the full doc (it wasn’t yet released when the post went live): https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9YzclxcT0NHNHNQTUV4MkpSSWc/view?pli=1&sle=true.

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About big jonny

The man, the legend. The guy who started it all back in the Year of Our Lord Beer, 2000, with a couple of pages worth of idiotic ranting hardcoded on some random porn site that would host anything you uploaded, a book called HTML for Dummies (which was completely appropriate), a bad attitude (which hasn’t much changed), and a Dell desktop running Win95 with 64 mgs of ram and a six gig hard drive. Those were the days. Then he went to law school. Go figure. Flagstaff, Arizona, USA

153 thoughts on “Then seizing him, they led him away and took him into the house of the high priest…

  1. Gorgeous George’s press release, dated today, is about the most mealy-mouthed, whiny and weasely equivocation I’ve ever read.

    Pro cycling sucks these days.

  2. Interestingly, flightware tracker has his plane somewhere over the Atlantic heading to Belgium:

    http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7LA

    For those of you who don’t know how plane registrations work:
    Every U.S. registration has an N- number. Has to start with N. Then the registration application needs at least one number (0-9) and can then have two trailing letters. So, vanity registrations (Nike has N1KE, for example) are popular.

    It’s relevant that the hubris here in plane registration echoes the hubris in LA’s comeback. Hubris that eventually brought him down. Have fun flying on N7LA after those 7 wins are GONE! Stay in Europe.

  3. I got ahead of myself. I guess the plane has been sold. But the history of LA owning that plane does show a last flight fleeing the U.S. in April. My apologies.

  4. I’m digging my LiveWrong bracelet out of storage.

    So does this mean that Greg Lemond is now and again the only American to ever win the Tour? God bless that man for not shutting up in the face of the LA backlash.

    I hope all those who have had their financial and professional lives destroyed when LA turned on them get some small measure of vindication from this. Frankie, Betsie, Mike Anderson, Lemond, etc etc.

  5. You know what, I have to say one other thing. As an American I am proud that we are often leaders in doing what is right in the world. That said without trying to get too political.

    Here is no difference. No other cycling country has had the nerve to completely discredit ALL of it’s past 10-15 years of cycling heroes.

    There is not a single successful American cyclist of the recent past that has been spared here. Truth above all else. What is right will always stand against what is wrong. In the long run.

    I sure hope Tejay is clean as a whistle.

  6. The LA thug machine is fucked. Nice to see him getting his ass smacked and it’s only getting started. What’s going on in the world; now the richest men can’t rule by heavy handedness? Here’s to all of you who took shit for calling him a dope dog; you were so on target. What do you think LA is doing today; his neck must be sore as hell from shaking his head from side to side?

  7. I credit George for trying to effect change from the inside, and in many ways this is one of the big differences between Hincapie and Armstrong – one saw that something was wrong and spent the latter part of his career helping to fix it, the other used it to create a monument to himself.

    Well said, D – agree with you that in this moment of weakness there is a source of pride. It’d be more meaningful for our country if the NFL would get on the USADA bandwagon…talk about guys who are juice to the gills….

    But that’s a story for another day.

  8. I’m glad Travis Tygart put all this out in the public domain.

    Now if we could just get our hands on the Papp Client list so I’d know who to punch in the face…

    Thanks!
    Burt

  9. Here is the actual report: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9YzclxcT0NHNHNQTUV4MkpSSWc/view?pli=1&sle=true

    Cancer Jesus is officially crucified. What’s he going to do now? Take down Hincapie? Leipheimer? There will be no rising from the grave in three days from this one. As an aside, if there is this much proof, why did the federal case get dropped? Also, everyone at the UCI needs to resign. Today. The data in that report is even more damning than I imagined it would be.

  10. …the cancer jesus’ perpetual “i’ve never doped” snake-oil charade is both sad & pathetic…

    …a great athlete who once seemed heroic even, has let his ego rule his life to the point of becoming sad & pathetic…

    …a man surrounded for years by yes-men, lawyers & greedy sponsors now relies on others to fabricate his truth instead of saying “enough’s enough” & with every denial, that man appears more sad & pathetic…

    …only a sociopath or an idiot doesn’t know when to stop…

  11. Was’nt it milli vanilli who said “we’ll give back the grammys but still keep the money”? If i could be a proracer, dope and earn millions i’d do it in a heartbeat. Good for you Lance.

  12. wow.

    “EPO all in my veins
    Lately things just don’t seem the same
    Actin’ funny, but I don’t know why
    ‘Scuse me while I pass this guy”

  13. I like how so many washed up dopers now want to cash in if they can. Whos got the next book? Simeoni? He’s probably so glad someone still remembers him at all.All this does nothing for usa cycling.

  14. …smoking crow…how about this offers young american cyclists going forward the opportunity to race clean, drug free & without the concerns of just what those drugs might ultimately be doing to their systems ???…

    …like maybe no testicular cancer if they happened to be genetically predisposed like a certain someone quite likely was…

    …that doesn’t count ???…

  15. When a baseball player or football player gets busted do you care? No. You just think “what a idiot” or “what was he thinking”. How many people go to GNC and buy stuff that they are going to make them better? Back in the day if you drink black coffee, eat some chocolate and eat a sugar cube you were doped up. Plus alcohol is a drug so are’nt we all guilty? My point is there was no need for this shitty day. Lets hope in 12 years vangarderen was clean. And if not would you care?

  16. I had no idea Zabriskie’s father was a drug addict. Bruyneel and Armstrong pressured him into doping. According to the report, the guilt of breaking his vow to never do drugs put him in tears. I wonder if the Pharmstrong fanboys would worship him the same if they knew that.

  17. I wonder if he’ll be sued by those whose livelihood he toileted and who were forced to either; reach into their pockets to defend themselves for telling the truth, and/or devote huge amounts of personal time trying to limit the damage he was doing to them. Emma O’Reilly, Betsy A and whoever else..

  18. I think Dave Z. is a thoughtful person and definitely one who believes in Karma. He seemed so unfazed when he went down in the CSC TT in yellow. Now we know why. Fate catches up. He knew it.

    I don’t like JV, but I do like how he’s tried to outsmart the dopers with a clean program. Because he knew what little impact it had on some of the already high HC level riders, he knew which riders would be the best clean. Justice, perhaps. His doping experience actually equipped him with the skills to identify the best clean riders to go against it. In my mind, debt paid by JV, DA, CVDV.

    Levi and Big George, however, that’s another story.

  19. …@ smoking crow…ya, i do care & i’ll tell you why…

    …there was a time when i had my suspicions regarding the doping culture & i kinda didn’t care…i thought – “they’re grown men, let ‘em do what they want…it’s an incredibly hard sport & the playing field is level if they’re all doing drugs…”

    …like you, i figured “…stirring up shit on the sport isn’t gonna do it any good, right ???” & at the time, that’s what i went with, so i can’t claim any moral ground here…

    …the real kicker for me was the mafioso-like intimidation used by armstrong to quiet anyone who was willing to speak the truth…

    …the use of belittlement, negative publicity, his deceitful self righteous indignation aimed towards anyone & everyone who dared speak the truth…i think every one of those 7 tour wins slowly crescendo-ed in affecting his thinking process…

    …the man used (& is still, to this day, trying to use) his lawyers to create a tactical barrage to try & quiet people who knew the truth because he saw himself as bigger than the sport & i have to think he came to see the sport as more of a business that would support him for the rest of his life if he could put the onus on others…

    …so, ya, i do care, both about the sport & all the others involved & i’m glad more people stood up to be counted…

  20. …bottom line…smack + alcohol contributed to both their deaths…

    …that & an old school rock n’ roll lifestyle…

    …i live in an old yet refurbished 1920′s house where janis used too practice…this house was bought with royalties from the first ‘big brother & the holding company’ album which was the world’s introduction to janis & has been owned all these years by janis’s drummer from those early days…

  21. …so i guess whoever (marky mark ???…ben affleck ???…matt damon ???) owns the rights to filming that lance armstrong movie has got a shitload of revising to do, huh ???…

    “the rise, fall & reemergence of, whoa, now serious crash & exposure of a scandalous american sporting legend”

    …that’s why i don’t write movie scripts ‘cuz that does not flow off the tongue…

  22. They take all 7 of Jaun Peloto’s victories. Okayfine, I got no dog in that fight. But how do we know-HOW DO WE KNOW-that the first place losers were clean?

  23. @dirtybiker As soon as i heard Tygart called the interviewer TJ i stopped listening. This is a self fulfilling ego trip. Lets see if he hincapies results are void. Word on the street says lemond smoked the furry pipe before racing.Maybe even travis’s

  24. @smokin crow, even if what you assert is true, that is is a “self fulfilling ego trip,” how does that, in any way, negate the mountain of evidence presented today against Lance Armstrong?

  25. …hey…if armstrong wanted to strive to be a cycling champion, why can’t tygart strive to be a champion anti-doper ???…

    …what’s good for the goose surely must be good for the gander…

    …& somebody’s goose is cooked, no matter how much denial is involved…

  26. “how does that, in any way, negate the mountain of evidence presented today against Lance Armstrong?”

    Good question, Jonny.

    I wonder, are there “mountain[s] of evidence … against” the athletes who will inherit Mr. Armstrong’s substantial palmares?

    If not, is that where we go next? When do we stop?

    This is a line of argument which doesn’t know where it started nor where it ends. The System Serves Itself.

    Rubber side down, brothers and sisters.

  27. brrrrtttt

    cheating is about staying one-step (or more) ahead of the rules. there are no ‘clean’ professional sports, so please get over your delusions.

    that’s the way it works, dummies. they’re pro because they take risks and push every facet of performance to the absolute limit. if they didn’t, they’d be wrenching in a shop or teaching gym class.

    and, this is still a witch hunt now matter how you spin it. authorities went after 1 person when the whole fucking crew were co-conspirators all covering their own asses the same way for years. so gloat over the guy that’s raised millions for charity at the expense of your ‘pure clean cycling’ delusion. idol worshiping ego strokers. you can’t have your cake and eat it, too. you can’t cheer heroics and then get cranky when the heroics aren’t on your imagined terms. lame old men, you are. let the racers race. you don’t own them.

  28. In the end we know what we’ve done and that’s all that matters. You have to live with yourself, money and all other bullshit aside.

    Be true to yourself.

    @ hack I’ve recently become aware of Senna, and I love that you bring him here for others. Reading “The Art of Racing in the Rain” introduced me to his name.

    BK

  29. @hack – I have often wondered that same thing about BigMig since he was the first pro cyclist i became a fan of as a kid. the only theory i can come up with is that he was always teh quiet and humble champion, and he really just kind of went away…faded into the Spanish countryside. and only to appear in the public eye a few times per year to promote Navarre agriculture and cycling. No limelight, and nobody ever really had a bad thing to say about the guy…compared to the arrogant prick from Austin who stood their and lied to the world for years and any cyclist who has been around a while knew he was lying…

    just a theory

  30. Good theory dirty biker. In the end, I think Pharmstrong’s arrogance is what brought him down. He made a lot of enemies by being such a prick. He seems to have no conscience or remorse. Just one enormous, suffocating EGO

  31. Finally! Justice has been served…take that Tour De Milli Vanilli.

    Cause girl you know it’s true! Oh Oh Oh Lance fooled you

  32. Dirty and Cap’n Tony: I think you guys have hit the nail on the head and good for Big Mig. Interesting to note that Lemond has never said a bad word about Big Mig personally despite the fact that Big Mig most represents the EPO movement that Lemond believes retired him. As for LA, guess he assumed that the “get out of being a prick free” card that cancer afforded him had no limit or expiration date.

  33. i ride a bike. i’m all about it. but I also train dogs. My last dog spent 8 of her 13 years alive in the top 10 nationwide for agility Rhodesian Ridgebacks.
    F the 1ball wonder boy, i met him, he sux. He gives my birthplace & home town a bad name. (Awesone Texas 4Life!).
    But i’m gonna drop this lithe bomb right here: ” If you ain’t cheatin’ you anin’t tryin’ ”
    I learned it a long time ago competing against people on the world team. They would beat me & my dog time and time again. We could run the course for a qualifying score in 40 seconds, they could do it in 32.
    That my friends is what separates #1 in the country from #8. Story of my life.
    And I’m OK with that.
    Cheers,
    JimmyC
    ATX

  34. $1,000,000 in payments to Dr. Ferrari? But I thought ball tonguer in cheif carmichael was our coach? Guess that explains why i did all those lame ass bicycling magazine workouts and still can’t suck enough.

  35. As to who get the jerseys who fucking cares, just glad they ripped them off the back of the biggest loser, fraudster, hoaxter the world has ever seen. Balloon boy a distant second on the hoax.

  36. You people all still think he had cancer so bad it would have killed anybody else…likely a hoax as well.

  37. Latest scuttlebutt: The true World Championships AKA EL TOUR DE TUCSON 2012 is that for the PBAA to assign a placing the Top 40 finishers will have to submit to testing.

  38. I’m not sure anyone can call this a 1 person witch hunt by the USADA. Honestly I think Pharmstrong is the only douche bag stupid enough to dope openly with team mates and then treat them like shit for dragging his arse to 7 tour victories. As for the riders who have now inherited his tour victories, most likely they doped to. But they weren’t arse hats that treated their team mates and sport as a steppingstone to justify their ego.

    As for the constant denial the only point of it, from my point of view is to keep himself out of court for defrauding the American taxpayer. I’m not sure how anyone buys the fact that the upper echelons of the peloton doped and some one riding Panyagua beat them 7 years in a row.

  39. …so…does armstrong ‘get it’ ???…

    …do the denials continue forever or will he be smart enough to use his former teammates admissions as a stepping stone to extract himself from his self delusional quagmire & shock the fucking world by coming clean ???…

    …it would behoove him to do it & do it soon but that means little…

    …armstrong never does anything by the book & these days, if he didn’t write the book, i doubt he believes the book exists…

    …as a personal associate of his (& mine) suggests – “…it’s, ahhh, complicated…”

    …which i think is horseshit…

  40. So what I’m taking away from this is that Tugboat is the only prominent figure associated with American pro
    cycling emerging from this with reputation intact.

  41. …sorry, john…tugboat was addicted to chew toys…euro chew toys…

    “…not that there’s anything wrong with that…”

  42. …speaking of goodbyes, mongo gone

    …alex karras, ex-detroit lion, fearsome defensive tackle, hall of famer, fine actor & really good guy finally passed away at 77…

    …i honestly feel sad thinking about the guy being gone…r.i.p, bud…

  43. What’s the over-under on Armstrong making a full admission of wrongdoing?

    He’s painted himself into a corner, but there remains but one way out.

  44. a buddy of mine recently offered this view — as clear as my fuzzy brain remembers it anyway: Armstrong continues to deny his drug use while he and his partners go and promote their own races (mtn bike, tri etc.) not beholden to conventional governing bodies.

  45. They already made the movie, it was called “Rocky 3″ and the scumbag dopers were the Soviets. Your dream that Armstrong will be remembered as anything thing more than those cheating scumbags will not happen.

  46. Oh oh oh.

    There will be a movie. Hollywood would not pass this up.

    Now we just need a name for it.

    I vote “Tour de Douchebag”.

  47. …btw…contador ???…guy learned at the feet of the master…

    …just sayin’…

  48. What I want to know, and has never been discussed as far as I know, is when does Trek get lynched?

    You cannot be the major sponsor of a pro team, and not have your fingers on the control stick of who does what.

    They wanted huge return on their investment, and their deep pockets funded whatever doctors where needed, research done, etc, to guarantee not only victory in the peloton, but victory over the anti doping folks too. Obviously I have no proof, but tell me you believe that Johan Bruyneel funded the whole thing on his own dime, or that the US Postal service put up all the dough, and I’ll tell you about a bridge I’d love to sell you.

    Trek knew, and to this day, is making BANK on the Lance effect. So many wannabes in skin suits out there doing 10 MPH in their aero bars on Trek Madones it’s embarrassing.

    Lance et al doped. No doubt in my mind, but I want the folks that told him he had to, to be held to the same standard he’s being held to.

  49. @mendon – I don’t really think that someone had to twist LA’s arm as he twisted others to dope. Trek’s real crime was driving the Lemond brand into the ground for their good ole pal Lance. Greg got fucked on that one for sure – all because he dared speak the truth about Lance. Economic crime, plain and simple.

  50. I hope they don’t fuck the movie up. This is tilting beyond Lawyers, Guns & Money….we’re going have lots more bribing, threats, spying, wife beatings and marauding Armstrong kids on dope. Carnage on a grand scale. As long as that fools money holds out we get cheap, shitty drama all the way through next summer.

  51. Hopefully, in a short while this will be appropriate:

    Ozymandias.

    I MET a Traveler from an antique land,
    Who said, “Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
    Stand in the desart. Near them, on the sand,
    Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read,
    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
    And on the pedestal these words appear:
    “My name is OZYMANDIAS, King of Kings.”
    Look on my works ye Mighty, and despair!
    No thing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that Colossal Wreck, boundless and bare,
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.

  52. Why does big jonny always have a huge throbbing boner for Lance Armstrong? He cheated just like all those other dudes, only he was more aggro about it and everyone else was too much of a pussy or had not enough money to do anything about it. That’s the way this country rolls. Also, the whole “cancer jesus” label pisses on all the non-cyclist cancer survivors and their families who appreciate the money that Armstrong has thrown towards cancer awareness and fundraising. Yes, he was a cheater, and we cyclist don’t tolerate cheating, we get it. The dude who has a Livestrong shirt and is doing chemo could give two shits about whether or not Lance used EPO on some bicycle ride in 2001. Instead, let’s call him something else. Besides, this is a country where we pay ex-convicts millions of dollars to entertain us on TV, and we forgive…

  53. @brap – yeah, great point about the terrible use of the phrase “cancer jesus.” I don’t know about you but I had never even heard of cancer until Lance Armstrong valiantly created all of this awareness. How about this – none of the fundraising actually goes to research to find a cure. All of the fundraising is enmeshed within the marketing of the Livestrong brand. Now ask yourself this: Who really benefits? Could it be that Lance Armstrong does? Could it be that he created an organization that promotes him as much as it does anything related to cancer? Yeah, I know the truth hurts for all you Livestrong supporters. Cancer Jesus is the perfect way to characterize such a megalomaniac, self-appointed spokesperson for cancer patients. He appointed himself to this and deserves to be called out for what he is – a swindler and a false prophet.

  54. @pinchflat– sarcasm noted. False beliefs for cancer survivors are not necessarily a bad thing. I’m not a Livestrong or Armstrong supporter. I think he can clearly be categorized as having a personality disorder. I would also point out that a meglomaniac suffers from delusions of great power while LA actually has great power. He may be a narcissistic crook, but then the best crooks usually are.

  55. “meglomaniac suffers from delusions of great power while LA actually has great power.”

    You’re delusional. He is a bitch. He can stop by my house and amaze with his “powers” is he wants to get messed up bad.

  56. The Pink Mafia has or will relieve him of an cancer related power he once had.

    There isn’t a single rational parent on the planet telling their child “You can be like Lance, that would be great”.

    And the only cyclists left supporting him are fellow dopers and cheats.

    Powers, lol.

  57. @guest– by power I was referring to his net worth, and his level of influence, which is clearly waning.

    There’s a book coming out this month: “The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success.” LA will probably get a chapter in the second edition.

  58. “Three other members of the USPS Team have chosen to contest the charges and take their cases to arbitration: Johan Bruyneel, the team director; Dr. Pedro Celaya, a team doctor; and Jose “Pepe” Marti, the team trainer. These three individuals will receive a full hearing before independent judges, where they will have the opportunity to present and confront the evidence, cross-examine witnesses and testify under oath in a public proceeding.”

    Something that is being overlooked, I think. Will these hearings reveal the big monsters at the back of the closet?

  59. brap,

    Consider:
    1. He wasn’t able to prevent his teammates from being caught/punished.
    2. He wasn’t able to keep his teammates quiet.
    3. He wasn’t able to keep himself from being stripped of his titles.
    4. We wasn’t able to prevent his or anyone else’s cancer.

    So at best his “power” was fairly weak and short lived. Though you deny it, you sure seem like a fanboy.

  60. Jeez you guys, do I have to keep repeating this? 99% of the arguments against lance are emotional, not based on fact. THERE ARE NO FACTS. He never failed a doping control. That’s how the game was played, and Lance killed it.

    The other 1% (Jonny) is argument for argument’s sake— that’s what attorneys do for a living. Tp point to the testimony of guys WHO DID GET CAUGHT and squealed to reduce their suspensions… well, choose your friends carefully, people.

  61. @guest– I agree that his ill-gotten influence only went so far, but we wouldn’t be talking about him if he was a weak nobody.

  62. Brap, I didn’t say he was a nobody. I just don’t think he is powerful…if he was at one time he ain’t anymore.

  63. I read Rough Ride when it came out in 98 ..Thought it was pretty damning given the context. After that I took it that Pro road Racing WAS doping….and vice versa. After reading it, I never assumed anything but that they were all on the juice. I will never take pro cycling as clean until the UCI and USADA are shook up and cleaned out. For sure they are all atheletes of incredible talents, but they are not heros and not idlos (mine anyway). Hell, I dont even like Hincappie…

  64. Mikey – Lance the cancer advocate…fine, support him because he is a survivor and he provides hope for others – even if he is a self centered douche. Lance the cyclist? Get your head out of the sand because you clearly cannot see or hear what’s going on.

  65. @jewfro— I’m not a supporter of Lance Armstrong. I am a supporter of rational thought and due process.

    What I see in this comment thread is an emotional, not rational response. Nailing LA up to the cross for being a “douche” is literally a witch-hunt. There is nothing at all illegal about being a douche. My point is this: LA played the game superbly. He won. Get over it.

    It was literally nauseating to read this morning how six of LA’s teammates had “cooperated” with the ego-driven USADA witch-hunt in order to have their suspensions reduced. How douchey is that? How does douchily ratting out another douche serve the sport in any way?? Use your brains, people.

    Pro cycling sucks these days.

  66. “My point is this: LA played the game superbly. He won. Get over it.”

    The game isn’t about not getting caught, the game is about not cheating in the first place. Yes, even when all around you are.

    Even Fatty has shifted his position on this. A tipping point has been reached.

  67. “The game isn’t about not getting caught, the game is about not cheating in the first place.”

    @guest— do enjoy the orange sky and riding your unicorn. On my planet, it doesn’t seem to go down that way. You noticed that this years Turkey winner was just popped for EPO, right?

  68. @el jefe— Sadly, no. When it was time to pull the trigger, the deal had a faint whiff I didn’t care for. I went and saw MotoGP at Laguna Seca instead, my first time seeing that circus, and it was a bloody good show. May well be there next year, though… you just can’t beat F1.

  69. …@ mikey, the only valid point you make is that there is a lot of emotion bandied about on this thread…

    …as far as you being a supporter of “…rational thought & due process…” then explain this comment – “It was literally nauseating to read this morning how six of LA’s teammates had “cooperated” with the ego-driven USADA witch-hunt in order to have their suspensions reduced…”

    …pure & utter horseshit…

    …the usada’s case was directed at lance armstrong, johan bruyneel, drs michelle ferrari, pedro celaya, luis garcia del moral & trainer jose ‘pepe’ marti…

    …not one of the six teammates were indicted by the usada…got that – not one…zip, nada…they were witnesses…get the facts straight of you wish to self righteously proclaim your interest in “rational thought”…

    …the usada ASKED them to offer testimony regarding the armstrong case wherein they all chose to speak the truth, which thus obviously involved self incrimination & because of that fact, they all received a sanction…

    …due to their cooperation, their sanctions were lessened from 2 years down to 6 months…

    …as witnesses & nothing more, each & every one of the six could have denied involvement & their participation would have ended there with no sanction whatsoever…

    …you’ve become the biggest apologist for lance armstrong on this site with your horseshit about “rational thought & due process”…

    …are you lying or simply not taking time to read the now published facts ???…

  70. “…due to their cooperation, their sanctions were lessened from 2 years down to 6 months…”

    @BGW— The oldest story in the book. These guys got popped and ratted out their “ringleader.” And you feel good about this? Pro cycling sucks these days.

  71. hey, BGW, please esplain why Lance’s ex-teammates are any less guilty than Lance? Doping is doping, don’t you think?

    Emotion. Not fact or reason. You’re tearing down the sport for no good reason. To the general public, it was some spandex-clad parade around surrender-monkey country fifteen years ago. Let it go. I’s not worth investing the emotion. My opinion.

  72. …facts don’t seem to matter to you anymore, mikey…

    …they never “…got popped…”

    …they “…ratted out…” themselves when asked to be witnesses…

    “and you feel good about this ???” – do i feel good about the fact that there is hope on the horizon for the future of cycling ???…ultimately, yes, i do…

    …face it…it’s been a sham & a despicable public display for years now & with a thorough house cleaning, it does stand a chance with some of the new rising stars who wish to compete cleanly…

    …betsy andreu has more balls than lance armstrong…

  73. Mikey, you keep repeating the emotional aspect of this discussion. Yet, you’re ignoring the fact that emotional reactions work on both sides of the debate. The facts are presented and more will arise in the arbitrations of the three who decided to take USADA to the arbitration table. The report is called the “Reasoned Decision” not an “Emotional Decision,” simply, because the facts are presented and analyzed with reason for everyone to see. You, with no knowledge of the situation, are allowing your emotions to hide the present facts as presented by those with firsthand knowledge and/or analyzed by professional experts. The only emotion in this argument is that of prejudice and ignorance by third parties. As the report explains, the facts presented therein are but a fraction of the truth. Despite that, the known facts are numerous enough to warrant a sanction.

  74. “…they “…ratted out…” themselves when asked to be witnesses…”

    …of their own volition, knowing full well the repercussions of such an action.

  75. Mikey, biggest Lance apologist on this site, at least after BGW woke the fuck up and smelled the coffe.

  76. …tea, guest…i woke the fuck up & smelled the tea…

    …yerba mate’ to be specific…

  77. “Despite that, the known facts are numerous enough to warrant a sanction.”

    @Rogbie— seen, brother. We have covered this previously; if you corroborate enough hearsay, a litigation can succeed. It’s the identical argument as “circumstantial” evidence. This is nothing new.

    My question stands: Why does LA deserve a more severe “sanction” than others also guilty of the exact same “offenses?” Why aren’t these other dopers mercilessly hounded fifteen years after the fact? Some dopers are more equal than others? The whole thing just stinks— especially when advocated for by howling mob in forums such as this one.

    I don’t believe for a moment that pro cycling is clean today. Or any other top-level professional “sport” for that matter. We need to be careful how we pick and choose our targets. I think if one went back and re-read Kafka’s _The_Trial_, inserting “Lance Armstrong” for K, it would seem uncomfortably familiar to current events.

  78. “Mikey, biggest Lance apologist on this site,”

    @guest— have I ever, even once, suggested that Lance Armstrong is innocent? I mean, other than citing the fact that he passed some six hundred doping controls during his pro cycling tenure. He played the game and won. So now the “rules” have changed, fifteen years later? Weak sauce.

  79. Stepping down from my unicorn for a second….

    “Why does LA deserve a more severe “sanction” than others also guilty of the exact same “offenses?”

    a) he is identified by USADA as the ringleader and instigant
    b) unlike others he did not come forward and provide evidence

    The rules he has broken (and he has… he really, *really* has) were the ones in place at the time.

  80. “b) unlike others he did not come forward and provide evidence”

    @guest— Really? The defendant— the alleged perp— has declined to confess? Do tell!

  81. I’m with Mikey.

    Let this witch hunt go.

    And if it does continue, the witnesses need to suffer as much as defendant.

  82. …it’s my understanding that it was attorney mark fabiani who first started bandying about the term “…witch hunt…” in conjunction with the investigation into lance armstrong’s doping habits…

    …technically it doesn’t apply here because the armstrong case involves actual illegalities, as have been admitted to by the majority of the participants…

    …what we have is a term pretty much everyone assumes they know the definition of & therefor for the likes of fabiani & company those assumptions create a nice misrepresentation of fact…

    …one guy says it, it’s conveniently repeated & then next thing you know, it’s parroted in the manor it is here…

    …this is not a witch hunt by any actual definition of the term no matter how often the armstrong apologists repeat it…

    …i don’t expect those who obviously haven’t taken time to inform themselves of the presented facts in the case to trouble themselves any further by researching even more facts but this is witch hunt nada…

  83. …500 to 600 clean drug tests ???…a figure mr armstrong cavalierly waves about & which in turn is parroted by his apologists…

    …it was researched & between the uci & the usada, the number of sanctioned tests was closer to 250 over the years, some of them no more than hematocrit procedures for health testing reasons…

    …factor in testimony by those teammates who were a part of lance’s doping circle as to just how easy it is to beat a drug test when one has the benefit of a little advance warning & a few simple tools, ie: saline solution & suddenly, it doesn’t seem as implausible as mr armstrong would have it appear…

  84. Mikey, Lance deserves a harsher sanction by opting to take his right to not go before an arbitration panel.

    From the “Cycling Investigation Statement”:

    “The riders who participated in the USPS Team doping conspiracy and truthfully assisted have been courageous in making the choice to stop perpetuating the sporting fraud, and they have suffered greatly. In addition to the public revelations, the active riders have been suspended and disqualified appropriately in line with the rules.

    “Lance Armstrong was given the same opportunity to come forward and be part of the solution. He rejected it.

    “Instead he exercised his legal right not to contest the evidence and knowingly accepted the imposition of a ban from recognized competition for life and disqualification of his competitive results from 1998 forward.”

    That is why Armstrong received a life-time ban and disqualification of results. Armstrong chose to take the ban rather than testify under oath about his actions.

    From the “Reasoned Decision”:

    “While this Reasoned Decision summarizes overwhelming evidence of Mr. Armstrong’s doping that would have been presented at the hearing had Mr. Armstrong not refused to challenge the charges against him, it necessarily cannot include all of the evidence that would have been presented at such a hearing. Had there been a hearing even more evidence would have been presented, including, evidence obtained through arbitration panel subpoenas and potentially evidence from government investigations.

    Furthermore, at a hearing USADA would have been able to examine on the record and under oath members of Mr. Armstrong’s inner circle and others with knowledge of Armstrong’s doping who refused to come forward or were unwilling to speak with USADA absent a subpoena. Mr. Armstrong’s refusal to participate in a hearing prevented the testimony of many other witnesses from being heard.”

    And one last bit:

    “Mr. Armstrong, however, refused to meet with USADA, setting in motion the sequence of events that led to USADA’s charges and ultimately to Mr. Armstrong’s sanction by USADA in accordance with the rules.”

    Armstrong received the punishment a coward deserves. The others, while they did cheat, had the courage to tell the truth and the grace to accept their punishments–the first step in going forward.

  85. “Mate, you’re coming across as a real Dick.”

    @Hurben— why do you say that? Is is an emotional response, or do you think my argument isn’t rational?

    I have never argued that LA is innocent, nor that he’s a nice fellow. Emotionally, I’m in the same camp as the torch-and-pitchfork crowd. Rationally however, the entire episode is a goat rodeo, and has nothing to do with “justice.” It’s bad for the sport.

  86. “…it was researched & between the uci & the usada, the number of sanctioned tests was closer to 250 over the years, some of them no more than hematocrit procedures for health testing reasons…”

    @BGW— careful work has winnowed it down to a mere two hundred fifty clean doping controls… so you’re saying that’s too few? How many would you suggest? How would it help?

  87. “Mikey, Lance deserves a harsher sanction by opting to take his right to not go before an arbitration panel.”

    @Rogbie— come on man, the alleged perp has declined the opportunity to confess, and this is a surprise somehow? What happened to “innocent until proven guilty?”

    This amounts to a non-legal entity (the USADA) saying, “my way or the highway.” Pure ego. Pure emotion. How is this good for the sport??

  88. “goat rodeo”

    Bwhahahahahahahahahahaha

    I liked to see a goat rodeo actually. Sounds like fun.

  89. I think the point (and it’s especially important if you’re going to make a fact based argument) is to not perpetuate the 400-600 test lie that LA throws around.

    Other than that, I’m generally with you. I don’t know what good it does and it is a witch hunt. Who doesn’t think that all of his former teammates were pressured? They did not come forward because of a guilty conscience. They came forward because they were about to get popped, and they were guilty. They all played the game better than the tests. I’d like to think the peloton is cleaner now, but I have no illusions that it’s clean. I’d like to believe that Levi and George are telling the truth when they say they’ve been clean since 2006 or 2007. But I don’t. Put a big asterisk on the whole bloody decade and move on. Call it the failed regulation (or the “we were fooling ourselves”) era and make the tests better.

  90. …christ almighty, mikey…it’s kinda obvious that this is nothing more than an intellectual exercise for you at this point, so please take the time to read the published facts of the case rather than simply challenging whatever comments are made on this site because you’ve most likely read a book that helps you personally define what is & isn’t logic &/or ‘rational thought’

    …although you & i may have limited personal history, i’m perceptive enough to realize that you ARE both an astute & intelligent human being but that being said, your stance on this case seems predicated more on verbal manipulation than actual fact…it’s certainly a tactic the armstrong legal team relies on…

    …how tiring it is to have you constantly bringing up the very banal “…is this good for the sport ???” when it was the sport that allowed the problem to evolve, not those who question it’s veracity & direction…what the sport needs is to legitimize itself by way of eliminating it’s cancerous portions & moving on to a cleaner era…

    …questioning the need for serious housecleaning by addressing past indiscretions does not bring a negative aspect to the sport when it’s used for that purpose whereas allowing it to continue riff with corruption does…

    …talk about a goat rodeo & you’re making yourself drunkcyclist’s little cowboy hatted buckaroo with your posturing…

  91. “…christ almighty, mikey…it’s kinda obvious that this is nothing more than an intellectual exercise for you at this point”

    @BGW— absolutely. I don’t care one way or the other about Lance Armstrong. Rationally, he’s the victim of a howling mob on— there’s no other word for it— a witch hunt. That’s all I’m saying. We should realize when we’re being emotional and keep in mind that it may or may not correlate to “justice.”

    “…how tiring it is to have you constantly bringing up the very banal “…is this good for the sport ???””

    But dude, it’s relevant. No one questions the NFL. No one questions MLB, the NBA, premier soccer or any other big-time sports leagues. Are they clean? HELL NO! So why should we allow our favorite sport to be kicked around and abused in this way? Is pro cycling really nothing more than a doping drama? I prefer to think not. My opinion is that this focus on doping— and specifically tearing down the sport’s biggest celebrity— is detrimental. I’d rather focus on Spartacus making his 500-millisecond bike changes, or some skinny Italian kid going up the highest pass in the Pyrenees at twenty fucking miles and hour. Forze!

  92. …were a judgment (in any situation) to be based purely on emotion, then yes, granted it would be crass, illogical & would correlate to justice perhaps only by chance…

    …that is not to say that emotion in context with fact is in any way wrong…it’s simply a reflection of passion & concern & does not supersede the facts as you seem to imply…

    …first off, i’d like to know why you are ignoring the published facts ???…that does not seem to represent ‘rational thought’

    …secondly, your great concern seems to be that this is nothing but a fabrication based solely on emotion wherein there are clear facts & thus you’ve put yourself in the position of parroting fabiani, armstrong, et al who’s emotions clearly rule their perspective because they have the most to lose…

    …there are two sides to the emotional investiture in this case…please keep that in perspective…

    …again, witch hunt is inappropriate use of the phrase because witch hunts were based solely on emotion…this clearly ain’t a witch hunt…

  93. “…again, witch hunt is inappropriate use of the phrase because witch hunts were based solely on emotion…this clearly ain’t a witch hunt…”

    Yes it is. And Mikey said it perfectly.

    “No one questions the NFL. No one questions MLB, the NBA, premier soccer or any other big-time sports leagues. Are they clean? HELL NO! ”

    Why only Pro bike racing ?? Why is no other sport hunted and disgraced in this way ??

    What’s happening to the one-nut wonder diminishes us all.

    And fries or not if this thread goes beyond 300 I will be very disappointed. That legacy is reserved for lj’s pot hole post.

  94. “yes it is…”…ya ???…then explain it with your logic…i need to hear your explanation, not the reasoning of somebody else that you’d like to hitch your wagon to…

    …& what the fuck do all the aforementioned sports leagues & their situations have to do with pro-cycling ???…where’s your logic regarding that…

    …we can’t stand alone ???…we aren’t allowed to show our warts when an effort is being made to clean up our sport ???…why the fuck not ???…if you’re gonna take a stance, i want YOUR fucking details…

    …& you talking about what “…diminishes us all…” ???…bwahahahahaha !!!…thanks for the fucking laugh…

  95. Everyone on the planet is doped up one way or another.

    Caffeine, nicotine, happy pills, sad pills, etc etc etc.

    What’s your dope ??

    Mine is nicotine and beer. Granted I’ll never climb the Alps in reality but the delusions allow me to do it all day every day.

    Too many glass houses.

  96. …that’s all you’ve got ???…

    …like i said – “…thanks for the fucking laugh…”

  97. That, TripleT, is one of the lowest comments that I’ve read on this site.

    You’re not even worthy of being called a Troll.

  98. …if calling you out because i was sceptical as regards your knowledgeable capacity of a subject that you DID weigh in on leads you to respond in such a manner, it really doesn’t speak highly of ANY intellectual capacity you might possess, now does it ???…

    …if you wanna look like a bigger idiot than you often do with your posted drunken blather, it’s certainly your prerogative…

    …but i agree with hurben…that’s pretty fucking low…

  99. @130 Mikey, calling witch hunt is deflecting. Saying the sport is getting torn down is deflecting. Saying he never failed a drug test so it’s all good is deflecting.

    Why would you deflect from the reality that the most celebrated American rider is a dope cheat? Not liking it is ok, but deflecting it and saying he should not be exposed is odd. If you say more should be caught, LA was not the only one, then that is great, I agree with you. Maybe it will be easier once the American kingpin goes down.

    “No one questions MLB, the NBA, premier soccer or any other big-time sports leagues.” Untrue, anyone with half a brain knows the deal. This likely explains why those sports are so popular.

  100. http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/5live/5lspecials/5lspecials_20121015-2155a.mp3

    “With contributions from former Tour de France cyclists Tyler Hamilton, Matt De Canio, Christophe Basson. Lance Armstrong’s former soigner Emma O’Reilly tells us about an abuse that was rife inside his US Postal Service Team.”

    Worth a listen if you’re still interested no matter which side of the fence you’ve decided to land. I will say this; if LA never doped then he is the victim of the most fantastically elaborate and widespread conspiracy this side of the “Moon landings”.

  101. “Why would you deflect from the reality that the most celebrated American rider is a dope cheat? Not liking it is ok, but deflecting it and saying he should not be exposed is odd. If you say more should be caught, LA was not the only one, then that is great, I agree with you. Maybe it will be easier once the American kingpin goes down.”

    @Barry— so “the American kingpin goes down…” Who’s next? They’re all dopers. How many of them do you destroy? You won’t get all of them. Where does it end? And I ask yet again, how is this good for the sport?

    ““No one questions MLB, the NBA, premier soccer or any other big-time sports leagues.” Untrue, anyone with half a brain knows the deal. This likely explains why those sports are so popular.”

    O RLY? Am I uninformed of USADA’s massive investigations into each on the ball-and-stick leagues? All the “kingpin” multiple-champions being prosecuted and stripped of their glories? Going back fifteen years? Longer?

  102. “How many of them do you destroy? You won’t get all of them” Hopefully as many as possible. Start at the top, pick the easy fruit and let it rip. i would say you go back and deliberate as far the the evidence suggests. fifteen years is likely not going to pass the public money cost benefit. But with this case, these clown are all still involved, this is not digging up the past.

    Good point on USADA not challenging major televised sports. I see them having no business with NFL since it is not olympic, but for NBA and soccer it is the ultimate tell that the IOC is not actually anti-doping rather anti-doping scandal that they let sleeping dogs lie in this area. Still, i see no reason to discount the current case due to a lack of a case currently on going against Usain Bolt, Dwight Howard, or any other too good to be true physiques. That is just sour grapes.

  103. “Hopefully as many as possible. Start at the top, pick the easy fruit and let it rip. i would say you go back and deliberate as far the the evidence suggests. fifteen years is likely not going to pass the public money cost benefit. But with this case, these clown are all still involved, this is not digging up the past.”

    @Barry— I feel this sort of “scorched earth” policy is detrimental to the sport of cycling. Why not whistle past the graveyard like the NBA and premier soccer examples you (quite correctly) cite? Why do they get a free pass?

  104. …ummm…the horse is kinda already out a the barn door, ya ???……

    …so instead of wondering how it looks to the visitors, how about just solving the problem with the barn door so it doesn’t keep happening ???…

    …make sense ???…

  105. to continue the metaphor, the horse just got tossed from his own charity and got dropped by his biggest sponsor. surely oakley and trek to follow…

    over under on them clawing back monies? the LA’s SCA testimony he said all his contracts had anti doping clauses built in, this ain’t gonna be pretty.

  106. “the horse just got tossed from his own charity and got dropped by his biggest sponsor. surely oakley and trek to follow…
    over under on them clawing back monies?”

    @Barry— seen, brother. I wonder though, how does the manner in which Nike, Trek and Oakley spend their marketing dollars become a concern of ours? What other dopers do they have contracts with? NFL, NBA, etc?

    I’m about to throw a leg over my “rain bike” and see if I can get 40 or 50 miles before my feet are frozen blocks of ice. It’s always my feet, even when I wear those stupid neoprene booties. I hate the fucking booties. This reliable steed was built and distributed by Trek, has Bontrager components, and ironically is branded “Lemond.” We live in strange times. Rubber side down, y’all.

  107. deflect Mikey. this thread is not about other sports or other dopers. if you want to start another one, link to your blog and let’s have a go. telling me to mind my own marketing money business is awesomely deflective.

    and get waterproof socks. they are stupid but they work for some people.

  108. …speaking of other sports, whether mikey gives a good goddamn about them or not, he missed his true calling…

    …should a’ been a hockey player…

    …guy blocks, smothers or deflects anything directed his way, which, as a goalie is a great trait…

    …on the other hand, as someone involved in social discourse, it plays as both disingenuous & exceedingly calculated & i honestly have to wonder to what end in this case…

    …the ‘image’ of cycling ???…give me a fucking break…

    …time to cleanse & rebuild, not defend rubble…

  109. “Mikey, just dope up like your hero, it’ll keep you warm.”

    @guest— you obviously have no idea who my heroes are, sir.

    Alas, a few are sanctioned dopers— Marco Pantani, Gorgeous George, Tommy Danielson.

    The other sports I follow have been surprisingly free of doping sanctions. Gee, I guess no one in any of those sports uses performance-enhancing drugs, eh?

  110. PS— had an awesome fifty miles today, my feet were fine. Having hung up the Trophy Bike for the season, I was out on the Iron Pig, and my mistress, She of the Pain Cave, took my measure and found me badly wanting on the climb up Newport Way, around mile forty-three.

    Right now, this six-pack of Winter Hook has a serious problem, and that problem is ME. Enjoy the ride, brothers and sisters.

  111. …i’m gonna lobby nike, now that they’re going to rename their ‘lance armstrong fitness center’, to change it to the ‘drunkcyclist fitness center’

    …& no cold michelob in the fridge…just a variety of handmade american brews…

  112. Honestly Mikey, your rambling have been so emotional, disjoints, wrong and pointless I’m just surprised you didn’t offer a list of your hero’s stating they all doped.

    Keep your torch going, maybe LA will be restored to glory in spite of all he has done…good luck with that.

  113. “Honestly Mikey, your rambling have been so emotional, disjoints, wrong and pointless”

    @guest— weak sauce dude.

    “maybe LA will be restored to glory”

    Who cares about Lance? It’s okay, put down the pitchfork, brother.

  114. …ya, i’d still ride with ya, mikey…

    …& there are guys who post up here who you literally couldn’t pay me to ride OR drink free good beers with…

    …so, there’s that…

  115. “put down the pitchfork, brother.”
    Why? It has finally gotten good after over a decade of this bullshit? I’m loving his have to face the music.

    I suggest you however give up the bromance, your honey lance was a turd, move on…maybe you could worship Ray Lewis, he got off free.

  116. “Why? It has finally gotten good after over a decade of this bullshit? I’m loving his have to face the music.”

    @guest— let go of the negativity, dude, you’ll be a happier person. My advice.

    “I suggest you however give up the bromance, your honey lance was a turd, move on…maybe you could worship Ray Lewis, he got off free.”

    I don’t know Ray Lewis— who does he ride for?

  117. So is Gregg LeMonde the premiere American cyclist now? Because he was clean? He never cheated? Heard that one before. They all cheated. That was cycling. All those who bitch and moan and moan and moan are easy. Armstrong could stay up drinking for 5 days and kill you on a hill. You all know it. If you’re looking for ‘pure’ you’re a little kid believing in fairy tales. Most people seem to be followers. The herd. Are there any winners?