Because it never ends…
From: BGR
Riding to work early Saturday morning 12-19-09. I was “buzzed” by a City of Flagstaff transit bus. I had moved to the left side of the bicycle lane to avoid a pile of snow. The bus chose to come within a foot of me, even though their was no other traffic within blocks. I followed the bus to the main transit center. I took a photo of the license plate, and tried to get a good photo of the driver. I then followed the bus riders on the bus in order to get a better photo. The driver soon realized that I wasn’t there for a ride. The following is some of the incident that I recorded on my phone.
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:46 am
Some of the responders make fun of couriers but—welcome to our world. One foot?
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:52 am
One foot=draft.
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:58 am
Nice, sounds like the cop and drivers need to go to traffic school.
December 22nd, 2009 at 10:22 am
isn’t this just a clear violation of three-foot passing law on the books in AZ? But when it comes to public transport, the drivers hide behind their Union first.
December 22nd, 2009 at 10:55 am
“You have to stay in the bike lane.”
Section 1. Title 28, chapter 3, article 7, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended by adding section 28-735, to read:
28-735. Overtaking bicycles; civil penalties
A. When overtaking and passing a bicycle proceeding in the same direction, a person driving a motor vehicle shall exercise due care by leaving a safe distance between the motor vehicle and the bicycle of not less than three feet until the motor vehicle is safely past the overtaken bicycle.
See azbikeclub.com/bikelaw.html
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:05 am
Yep, just another day of commuting in Flagstaff… they JUST started to scrape the ice piles off of the bike lanes (~%20 of downtown bike lanes, not milton or butler, etc)… just as we’re expected another 6-8″ of snow today.
AzDailySun finally followed up on the cyclist killed by a city worker, but with a not so nice conclusion (read as, the police just came up with conflicting evidence and handed the case off to the county attorney whether or not any charges will even be filed.) (can’t find azdailysun link due to their website update.)
Of course, I’ve already ranted about city vehicles round these parts:
http://drunkcyclist.com/2009/11/16/biker-down-fatality-today-in-flagstaff/#comment-33494
Also, on a lighter note, someone don’t like ol’ Randy’s new bike shop, hahaha:
http://flagstaff.craigslist.org/bik/1520799680.html
I’ll be taking bets on who this is…
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Great documentation of the event. hopefully this will get to the bus co and the driver will be fired. Send a copy of this to each city council member, mayor, etc.
December 22nd, 2009 at 2:03 pm
funny thing about Arkansas bicycle legislation; we also have a 3 foot law on the books, but state roads cannot be designated as ‘bike routes’ until they have a shoulder installed. Can’t remember the width of the shoulder, but most of these roads don’t have a shoulder to speak of and cannot be considered safe bike routes until a 6 foot widening occurs. The omnipotent being of your choice only knows when this will ever happen. So, for now you’re supposed to get your 3 feet, but it’s ride at your own risk because there is no signage allowed to even alert autos to your potential presence.
December 22nd, 2009 at 2:17 pm
bit of a followup after i listened to your whole vid there. did you get that cop’s badge number and forward him the appropriate law that he needs to read up on? should be pretty easy to just email it to him or his superviser.
December 22nd, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Yeah I got his badge #, Its Officer Craven. I walked into the police station 2 hours later with all the laws printed out, and he told me I was wasting his time and that there was no way he would charge the driver, but was thinking of charging me (which he did). He stated that he had more important things to worry about, which is kinda funny since there was 4 cops that responded to the bus transfer station, which according to him was every cop on duty for that area. They all just stood around and B.S.ed for almost and hour. I screwed up getting this conversation recorded which was a bummer.
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Randy: yeah, it’a losing fight to tell the cops what the law is. Sounds like your local advocacy group can initiate some ‘constructive conversation’ with the PD I hope? Always good to remind the Chief that it’s the taxpayers that pay for their salaries. Stick your ground and keep your cool, if you don’t feel the officer is behaving professionally.
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Randy, what did they charge you with?
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Charges were listed as “Public Order-Disorderly Conduct-Fighting/Disruptive…” I guess its “…” cause they ran outa room on the police report? Case status is “Closed/Cleared. The driver “did not want criminal charges”. So they have decided not to press charges at this point. How nice of them!
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Fuck a court. You carry a ulock, dontcha? And pigs bleed just like anybody else.
December 22nd, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Yeah dude, go above the police, get a lawyer. fuck them.
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:13 pm
another chorus of “I fought the law and the law won”. That truly sucks. No sense of harm (bus vs cyclist) caused by stupidity. It is cultural. Just sad. Watch your back out there…
December 22nd, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Flagstaff is an absolute shit hole this time of year. Fumes from hell. Better be riding a mountain bike with studded tires. 15 minutes of public internet at the library. What a fuck all place it is.
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Laminate those print outs of the laws and carry that shit, for sure. Smokie prob. won’t be able give them the time of day of day for the bitch slap he just took to the face.
December 22nd, 2009 at 10:31 pm
I read your post & feel your pain. I commute from Mountainaire to Flag quite often & have been “buzzed” on I-17 by civilian motorist.Good times when their going 75mph & yelling out the window. As far as in town, Mountain lion transit & local PD have come uncomfortably close to my path when yielding, moving over to give room, or simply changing lanes were an option for them. It’s unfortunate when its public service vehicles, you would anticipate a level of safety & consideration on the drivers behalf. Fight the good fight & the advice of keeping your cool is paramount- but be persistent. The fact that you received charges sa result of this event is totally inappropriate. Good luck
December 23rd, 2009 at 6:45 am
Sent a link to the Flagstaff Mayor, Sara Presler and received this back:
Thank you for the link and comments. Good information and interesting perspective. Are there local legislative solutions?
Sent it to her via twitter and that response was also via twitter. she is @sarapresler.
December 23rd, 2009 at 8:35 am
Presler… Wow.
December 23rd, 2009 at 8:56 am
Agree with what Thomas F. has to say about fighting the good fight. Yours is a struggle that will take time and patience, much time and much patience!
Here is a video created by the Chicago Dept. of Transportation regarding cyclist/bus driver education: http://vimeo.com/7949969
December 23rd, 2009 at 9:08 am
Chicago DOT wins
December 23rd, 2009 at 9:21 am
Fuck the laws, it shouldnt be about the laws. It should be about a human putting forth the effort of pushing a brake, gas pedal or moving a steering wheel so as not to endanger another humans life. It seems so simple, thats what makes it so frustrating. People suck.
December 23rd, 2009 at 9:43 am
I’m not sure about Flag but if you need action from the police dept. you have to go through City Council. I would gather some folks up and head on down there if you hope to make any changes. leave any riteousness at home and sport your humble sack. it’s not kissing ass, it’s greasing the wheel. until the city council is on your side, your position is a nusiance to those in power who dissagree.
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:21 am
Here in Tucson there is a procedure for filing citizen complaints against bus drivers. It is in their interest to know about this and follow up on it. Believe me, the bus system wants to know if its driver’s are driving recklessly and putting people in danger. They cannot afford the lawsuits.
Also, those buses probably have video, but you’ll need to get to it quickly.
Anyway don’t think it won’t help to make a complaint. I would say there is about a 100 percent likelihood this driver will be reprimanded.
As an example, I represented a guy who literally did U-lock a city bus after the guy buzzed him. He broke the door. Not only did Sun Tran not go after this fellow, they reviewed the video, determined the driver had in fact grazed my guy, and gave the driver a talking to.
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:10 am
Gnome,
If you want to mess with the municipality and the bus driver, sue the driver, the bus owner, and the municipality for assault. Look up the definition of an assault in Arizona for the elements of the cause of action.
BJ can draft the complaint for you.
You will get the city’s attention. The city will be faced with tens of thousands in attorney fees to get rid of your case.
It’s called a nuisance lawsuit.
Your complaint cannot be bounced out of court short of a trial unless you agree to dismiss the case, which you will upon payment of $$$$.
Don’t dick around with this. It’s all just blah, blah, blah until you file it.
Oh, and since the driver was committing an infraction by not giving you enough room, which he essentially admitted on your audio, the only question is damages.
Since you don’t have any damages, the purpose of the stupid lawsuit is to educate the driver about the law while you waste substantial amounts of time.
Have fun. Let us know how it goes.
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:46 am
One more time on the “It’s all just blah, blah, blah until…”
Injured physically, injured mentally, more cynical… Think I ‘ll go for a run today; leave the bike in the garage, its too dangerous… people (drivers) too careless.
When do you fight? When do you give in?
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Great recording of the incident! It is lame that the bus driver, his supervisor or the police do not know the laws. It is also lame that you got charged for some BS charge. Keep escalating the issue and shed some light on the incident – city counsel, news stations, newspapers, lawsuit, ect.
Incidents like this happen everyday between motorists/cyclists and public awareness will help reduce the # of incidents.
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:58 pm
These public workers sure seem touchy about having their work recorded out in public where no expectation of privacy is said to exist…recordings like these need to keep being made and published so that the entire community can see just how the city drivers are shirking their responsibility to everyone on the road.
As for the charge, keeping a printout of the local codes or ARS related to this is a good thing, it might not keep an officer from charging you with some generic offense, but you’ll have an excellent complaint against the city and police supervisors that their officers are ignorant of the law; and ignorance of the law excuses no one =D
December 23rd, 2009 at 5:13 pm
If you have ever ridden on the road you surely have encountered situations such as this, I know I have. Good for you for pursuing the situation and trying to work for change. Keep after the transit, police, etc. Do you have an email address for the mayor? city council? transit chief?. I do not live in Flagstaff so, do you have an email for the tourism coordinator? Lets bitch slap these bitches from all sides.
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:31 pm
I agree that you you need to pick up the phone and start making some calls to the papers and news stations (even the valley ones)
It is preposterous that you were cited. Also… you have every right to take ANYONE’S picture no matter what they say- Unless you are using their picture for profit.
Also, contact the guy that runs the website http://www.flagscanner.com He keeps 3 weeks of recordings of all radio traffic Flagstaff Police Department. Maybe the dispatch recording of your case could shed some light on the matter?
December 24th, 2009 at 7:52 am
Again from the Flagstaff mayor via Twitter:
sarapresler
I just sent a copy of the video to the police chief, city manager, and deputy city manager. hope to get a reply soon. sara
December 24th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Well, Presler is moving the ball forward. Good for her.
December 24th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Hey gnome,
I had a situation happen over a year ago when some kids having a “good time” threw some stuff (a Gatorade bottle filled with liquid) at me from a moving truck as I was riding home. I filed a complaint…but the PD was very persuasive at talking me out of filing charges. They paid an official visit on the individuals since they had reports of similar happenings from the same truck, suffered by other individuals…..I had the license plate tattooed on my brain. In any event….I let it go.
Big mistake…..I ran into them 2 nights later…again on my bike…but this time I was not a victim….I witnessed them getting into an altercation with another individual who had just suffered the same as I did previously.
I followed up with the cops again…and they assured me that they had visited the home and talked to the parents. Again…I let this go.
I know it seems petty sometimes to consider pursing this type of thing….but it’s apparent that you started out with the right attitude. I wish you the best of luck in keeping it up. I think that these types of issues will always be an uphill battle.
On a tangent….give me an email if you’re up for some turns sometime.
December 25th, 2009 at 8:17 am
As an employee of local gov’t, one thing definitely gets our attention: Rattle the cage of your elected monkey. If he or she values your vote, they will take some sort of action. May not be the results you are seeking exactly, but at least awareness will be raised and people will be educated. It’s not really about the law, so much as your right not to be creamed by the bus. If you were drunk and deranged and crawling down the middle of the street at midnight, there would still be outrage that the bus ran you over, so why is the cyclist getting the shaft? Dude could have put forth the one calorie or so required to move that bus a few feet to the left. Additionally, you may want to present this as “concerned citizen nearly killed by bus” and not “embittered cycling wacko out for revenge.” Typically an “activist” is viewed as a loner, an extremist, a unabomber, if you will. Present yourself as one of thousands of people who live this every day.
If that doesn’t work or doesn’t suit your style, go with the old “bananna in the tailpipe” trick. One less bus, at least for a day!
December 28th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
this needs more press…. the police don’t even know the law and Randy gets a ticket??? I have had a truck hit me while commuting in flagstaff. I called the police. The officer says since there is no damage… there is no issue…however, I know that even the smallest fender bender gets a report..my shoulder hurt for weeks!
December 29th, 2009 at 10:20 am
[...] I’ve often argued that it’s the hit-from-behind accidents we need to address. Those are the ones that are killing and seriously injuring us, and they’re the ones that we have virtually no control over. Even extremely cautious, extremely experienced riders can be hit from behind, and it all too often results in the death of the cyclist. A starting point to solving this would be for local authorities to begin enforcing the three-foot rule, and letting drivers know that they owe a cyclist three feet even if the cyclist is in a bike lane. (Something even Flagstaff city bus drivers don’t seem to know.) [...]
December 29th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Any further updates on the incident?
December 29th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Yeah, got a call today from a supervisor of the Flagstaff P.D. . First he informed me that they will be doing some internal education about bicycle laws. Which was great to hear. Then he went on to tell me that after discussing the incident with the City Attorney, their not sure that the 3foot law ((A.R.S 28-735), but this would be A.R.S 723 5 feet if its a bus) applies since I was in a bicycle lane.
This makes me wonder what the internal education they are going to do will involve. Maybe some tips on how to make sure you not being documented when you make laws up?
I can’t find an email for the City Attorney. But if this doesn’t seem right to you either, and you want to help spread the truth, you can email all of the city council by sending you concerns to.
council@flagstaffaz.gov.
Also the Chief of Police bcooper@coconino.az.gov
On a better note, Mountain Line has been made to provide the video from the bus, which had 6-8 cameras. This is hopefully the proof that I need to continue this issue.
Thanks so much to everyone who has helped me with this, it was much needed and very much appreciated!
December 29th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
So i guess that this means that we have to actually ride in the gutter in order for the 3-5 law to help us…maybe they should just do away with the bike lane all together
December 30th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Randy, this sounds like an issue worth pursuing to me both as a cyclist and a Flag resident. I’d like to send a letter of concern to the city council as well as the Chief of Police, however I think I need your last name and the date of the incident (I can’t really see it in the video) to be taken seriously. It seems to me that Mountain Line is acting recklessly and the professional conduct of Officer Craven should be reviewed by his superiors. Best of luck to you.
December 30th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
The lack of knowledge of the traffic laws is same everywhere even in the “bike friendly” cities of Arizona. How can we be protected when the police don’t even know the laws. Maybe someday…
December 30th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
It’s not even the fact that they don’t know the laws they are to uphold, they even argued the legitimacy of the 3 foot rule. Unbelievable.
All I smell is bacon.
December 31st, 2009 at 11:11 am
Josh Z,
Thanks for taking time to send a letter to the city council. The case number is P09-26400 , The officers name is Jeffery H Craven #1139488, and my name is Randy Dean Mason on the police report.
December 31st, 2009 at 12:29 pm
“It’s not even the fact that they don’t know the laws they are to uphold, they even argued the legitimacy of the 3 foot rule. Unbelievable.”
Gnome— not to disagree, but the fact ANYONE even NEEDS a three-foot rule is unbelievable. Common sense went out some time in the 1970s.
December 31st, 2009 at 12:40 pm
indeed.
December 31st, 2009 at 12:42 pm
I just fired off and email to the city council and Chief of Police and voiced my concerns.
I do hope something good comes from all of this.
January 5th, 2010 at 8:23 am
Responses to my email to the City…
________________________________
From Sara Presler)
Dear Marty,
I sent a message to the Deputy City Manager, Jim Wine. Jim oversees the Police Department and works with Chief Cooper. The bus driver is *not* a City employee. However, we’ve notified his supervisor, Jeff. We have reviewed the issue with our law enforcement officer and have made corrections. The cyclist was *not* issued a ticket. I have copied Jim’s response to me below. Steps are being taken to address this issue and it does have my attention.
Call me or write with any questions.
All my best,
Sara
__________________________
(From Jim Wine)
“Mayor, just a quick update. Really there are two issues. The first is people keep saying the bus driver is a city employee and as you know he is not, he is an employee of NAIPTA. Jeff has been made aware of the situation and he is dealing with the situation as the Director of NAIPTA.
Second, our police reviewed the situation and have all ready spoken with the bicyclist and corrected some of the Police Officers interpretations of the law, which were not exactly correct. The bicyclist was never issued a ticket.
Hope this helps. Jim”
_________________________________
(From Chief Cooper)
We have been trying to work with the gentlemen that made this complaint and I understand your concern. We are doing our best to see that he gets his day in court if he wishes to pursue charges against the bus driver. Since the police officer did not witness this incident himself and since the allegation is by state law a civil offense, it would have been improper for the officer to take enforcement action himself. Please understand, the police officer was sent to this scene upon a request to stop a disturbance between the bus driver and the cyclist, therefore in his thinking his primary responsibility was to first maintain the peace.
Please believe me when I say that we at the Flagstaff Police Department are very concerned about bicycle safety and have taken this situation seriously. We have used this situation as an opportunity to remind all of our officers on the importance of being up to date on all bicycle laws and the importance of enforcement. I would also like to point out that the bus driver in question is not a City of Flagstaff Employee and therefore does not represent any attitude on the part of the City. Thank you for your concern and I assure you that Flagstaff is a bike friendly community. If you wish to discuss the further, please feel free to contact me directly. Chief Cooper
June 11th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Isn’t it great how we’re all so fucking inarticulate and stupid, but everyone knows how to speak “Cover your ass-disingenuous apology-show of concern without comitment-legal disclaimer-ese.” The Chinese will eat us like little chocolate covered cherries. Watch you back now, dude. They’ll be itchin’ to give you a hard time anyway they can.