Joe didn’t participate in the sabotage. Read BGR’s point of view here.
The thing that nobody understands is how this situation was simply a spontaneous clash and how insignificant it actually was. The fervor has been impressive nonetheless. How the removal of some tape on ONE corner of the course caused so much death and destruction is beyond me. I met up with Joe Murray, BGR and (skeptically) Dan D. at Joe’s house. There was no premeditation. Nobody said “hey, let’s go tear up the course.” That was my knowledge.
For perspective, Graeme sent this in from Scotland where they take their sabotage even more seriously.
That day, we happened onto the course by chance en route to the north side of the Peaks. I suppose there was a pretty good chance of that happening since we were in the Fort Valley trails system. There are only so many trails there. Joe and myself were tolerant of the competitors coming at us on the single track. We gave way and chuckled. People were taking their racing very seriously. It was comical. That was us.
Other people however, are not so tolerant of fellow trail users (biking, hiking or whatever) who when passing, are hyperventilating grunting & yelling something abut “right of way” giving no quarter themselves. In those instances, conflict will arise as it did. By the time BGR made it past the half dozen agro racer types, he had had enough. With Dan D. being present, the malace was going to escalate, not diminish. Dan D. is that kid your mother told you not to hang out with. Things were set to pop.
From the self righteous, I understand that myself or Joe were supposed to be the messiah’s of the situation, but that just didn’t happen. Like I said, it was not an organized (premeditated) effort. Shit just exploded through spontaneous conflict. By the time it was shaking out, Joe and myself were on our way out. Perhaps that makes us complicit in the action. It doesn’t matter and as it happened, it just wasn’t that big of a deal. Scooby saw the whole thing. He fixed the course, and we all moved on to the hearsay which I can tell you from experience, was WAY cooler than what actually happened.
As far as the kids that “got lost”, I understand being pissed. I would be as well had my kid been out there. However, can we apply some rationalization? Were we talking about kids on Hotwalks on the expert loop? Were they toddlers on tricycles? If kids were riding out there in the Fort Valley system, were they going to fall off a cliff or would the mellow 4% grade have cushioned their fall? What are the odds that with 300+ people within 2 square miles of their lostness things would be fine? Did these kids know what they were doing or is BGR to blame for that too?
If my son ever enters a bicycle off-road race, will he know what to do when he get’s a flat? When he crashes? when he gets lost? Will he be the one responsible for his saftey? What are the odds that somebody, child or adult, will get lost at an MBAA race that is not monkey wrenched? The kids, within any event, sabotage or not, need to be instructed by THEIR parents of what to do in those “emergency” situation. A good recommendation for getting out of lostness in the fort valley trail system is to simple go down hill until you hit a road.
But like I said, I would be pissed too but lets face it, kids and adults get lost on courses that have not been sabotaged. It happens all the time and if the worst that has happened here is a couple of bummer experiences because of being lost in the Fort Valley (aka; girl friend trails) System, then we’re all doing ok.
I’m out for a ride. While I schred sweet public singletrack, I’m going to ponder the idea that this place needs a meeting of the minds. Logic is below this irrational layer. Over reaction abounds but everybody is cool.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
great. now you are going to say that Van Halen is the best band ever.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
However tolerant and chilled you are, fucking racing snakes with attitude can push you to do things that may seem stupid in hindsight. They can be the absolute epitome of egiocentrism. They may or may not grow out of it.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
…“Blow it out your proportion”…good title, gnomer….
…i just shot an ‘e’ apology to joe @ sendero cycles…i was quite vociferous on this whole issue ‘cuz it seemed so over the top & having known & respected joe from the old days & it just didn’t seem ‘fitting’…
…anyway, sounds like yer working on bringing ‘peace to the valley’ but nonetheless, there really does seem to be a lotta pissin’ in each others beer, down that way…
May 19th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
I blow a big load of ball snot out my proportion on the people who were ready to Hang Joe, based on hearsay!!!!
May 19th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
i couldn’t understand a fackin’ thang that guy was saying on TV….
May 19th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
uhhmmnnn…..premeditated, spontanous…..
how does one account for the course marking being taken down
the day before the event and the week prior also ?????
May 19th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
How does one account for the massive glob of baby batter in your hair?
May 19th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
umm, like, whatever..(from MTBR):
May 19th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Jenn,
Again, it is entirely unfair and mean-spirited to throw the voodoo and sendero names under the metaphorical bus. joe and the gnome saw what they saw and did what they did (turn a blind eye and vacate). That was their choice; not “reporting” the “Saboteurs” was an exercise in free choice and constitutes no wrongdoing. BTW, what “really” happened? How much has been exaggerated and personalized? Why so much hate for Joe and voodoo (both flagtown assets). And sendero has other good locals associated with it; so bug off!
May you pinch-flat on your next ride.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Holy shit people chill the fuck out and ride your bikes. Do you stop riding tires, forks, bikes, and components because the company sponsors dopers, has people that smoke weed, drink and ride? Which by the way is all illegal. Do you call the police on the people who sit in the trailhead parking lots and drink post ride? Are they not endangering peoples lives when they hop into their cars after a few? Didn’t think so because let’s face it, the only reason anyone is pissed off at Joe or Gnome is because they didn’t do the hero thing, they did the human thing. They followed the ultimate code CYOA!!!! Do I agree with them? NO! Do I know exactly what they saw? NO! Do any of you besides the parties directly involved know exactly what happened? NO!!
Give you an example of this bullshit and heresy. I once was talking to a friend, while deeply intoxicated, about how I wanted to have sex with this one chick, who was a good friend of mine as was her boyfriend. Her boyfriend’s brother overheard part of the conversation and proceeded to inform his sibling of the fact that I had fucked his girl that very night. I then had to be in two physical altercations due to this. Now I was 100% percent wrong for talking about this girl and deserved to have my ass beat for running my mouth. But all this could of been avoided if young brother would of just understood he did not have the whole gist of the story and to stop talking shit before you have all the evidence.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
well, van halen (pre hagar) was one of the best. That I’m sure of.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
I know this is bullshit but has anyone acknowledged the fact that Anthony “Tony” Sloan from Yeti passed away. I got to hang with this guy for one day before interbike and a little bit at dirt demo. Mutha was cool as shit. He will be missed I was hoping to see him again this year. RIP
May 19th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
jamie’s cryin’!!!
ahhh..THE salad days.
May 19th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
What’s a “salad day”?… I had salad for lunch today. Was today a salad day? Or, does it refer to something I will set on fire after work? Or is it something else all together?
May 19th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
you know: the times when things were effortless and enjoyable.
or something.
May 19th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
“Jenn” wants me to step forward, Oh OK here you are… (w/ some rant..)
Randy and Diaz did it. OK? We all know that now anyway.
Leave the Gnome alone!!!
I didn’t exactly do nothing. I said it was a bad idea to everyone. I didn’t get involved, I rode away which in itself is doing something. Sometimes it takes some effort not to get into other people’s messes at least. If that is being lame then excussse meeee-eee-eeeeee.
Could I have “done something” yes, but I’m not some rat (said with a Queens accent) or officious do-gooder. That is me and I think there is NOTHING wrong with that. Besides, there were other problems with course markings and so on. I’m not responsible for the MBAA’s race. They have to accept the things that happen, cause there will be no matter what. I really didn’t think I wanted to help them out at the time.
Sure if somebody really needed some help, of course I would help them. It’s just a fucking mountain bike race.
Humm: Putting children in danger. That is quite a statement. Not sure how to respond to that one. I suppose I’m one step away of being a child molester then. (Like having your kid go mountain bike race is not a risk!)
Criminal? Jenn, if you think about this, you might figure out that this is not for you to decide, it’s the courts to decide, surely not you, whomever the fug you are.
And then there is the “protecting criminals” and so on. No need to entertain that asinine comment I think.
The cops know what happened. Diaz “turned himself in” (as he called it) and Diaz says they were pretty easy about it. I don’t think they are calling the FBI into this. They have other things to do like keeping people from killing each other.
Which brings me to the main problem (and more rant…)
People like Jenn talk like fucking fascists, which means making the condemnation (on-line with all the world to see) without either really knowing anything about it, or just playing out some self gratification, or what… I don’t know. This kind of thinking brought about the McCarthy hearings and so on. Ruined people’s lives. Extreme example yet the basic element is the same.
Yet since my name is being messed with while “Jenn” here sits back in (her/his/it) anonymity it’s pretty easy to say this shit, eh? All this really just makes Jenn an armchair shit-talker at best. (Although it’s “her” right under the 1st Amendment to do so.)
Yet another important point:
I thought I would just let the shit fly and I was fine with that. Yet selfishly making stupid comments and then saying to boycott VooDoo. And “She” dosen’t know anything about me, the situation, and VooDoo. (Although she rides a VooDoo.) And thinks putting a piece of tape over the sticker with my name is some kind of statement. The bottom line is that these are people’s jobs, reputation and incomes here and I do not own the company even.
Just short sighted, selfish and lame.
So Jenn: how about coming out and saying, “I’m Jenn, my full name is so and so and this is what I do and my address and this is the company I work for.” I would be impressed if you did that.
Anyway the bottom line is that we are free to say whatever we want, yet it is just that for some there is no consequence while for me there is to some extent so it really is personal I guess.
At this point the story has sussed itself out and anyone with half a brain can see who did the right thing and who did not. I could easily waste the rest of the day responding to people like “Jenn”… unfortunately.
If anyone wants to believe “Jenn” then I would rather have cool people buy our bikes anyway. Go buy a Specialized or Trek instead.
(The Giant Trans X is a damn good bike BTW.)
May 19th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
thanks Joe for stepping up and saying you piece. I agree, as most you who actually ride, that when you ride away from a group it is actually a quite the statement. so thanks Joe. also i agree that this got way to heated, and i was plenty wrapped up in this with feelings as well. im guilty for jumping in the lynch mob and im sorry for stirring the trough. i hope we can let it pass and all get back to riding.
that being said, if we want a constructive debate as opposed to a personal bash fest. why the hate towards non local cyclist in flag. it does rub me the wrong way cause i love flag but i dont live there. i guess that means i should never ride their trails? have ya’ll seen point break. how that missed your top movie picks is beyond me.
May 19th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Joe’s the man!
Jenn, well, we don’t even know if she is a she, or a he, it’s the internet after all.
This sounds like a big dust up over nothing. Jenn. Criminal really? Yeah, right. Fuck that. Messing with some course tape is not a criminal act, and if you think that it is, maybe you should loosen your helmet straps just a bit. And they called the sheriff? For fucking what exactly? I would have loved to have heard THAT conversation.
“Um, yeah, sheriff, this is the MBAA. You know, the mountain bike guys? Yeah, well, anyway, someone DARED to move some of our course tape, and we’d like for you to cuff and stuff them. What? You’re chasing crack dealers. Well, can you go around to their houses later? Oh, OK, I’m wasting your time? Sorry about that.”
Get a grip folks. Did someone get hurt? Nope. Did everyone return safe? Yes! What the hell were you racing for anyway? Look, I’ve won a few mountain bike races in my time, and the wire beaded tire you were going to win in the sport class isn’t worth all of this hassle. Just race your bike, fucking enjoy it, and chill the fuck out. Would I be pissed if someone moved my course markings? Sure. Would I get all this twisted about it? Fuck no…
May 19th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
All I know is kids got lost, wasn’t cool and if you really don’t give a crap why not ride the 100’s of other trails that weekend?! IF you are not a fan, leave it alone. You pay money to ride/race, you wanna finish….think of being 14/15 yrs old again tryin to move up a position in the series, then some tools decide to move just 1 piece a tape as ya say…still not cool. Anyhow, I’ll be at the take. I’d like to see all involved there as well.
May 19th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
How lost did kids get? They apparently found their way back.
May 19th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
so pay them for their race….they were a dnf and you look at them afterward and tell them sorry that there were tools on the course that ruined it for em!
May 19th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Hi Joe,
Good to get your slant on things.
I live at the end of the earth, (New Zealand & there’s nowhere else that I’d rather be), & I’ll probably never get to Flagstaff to ride so this whole fiasco shouldn’t matter to me but some of the attitudes here have seriously upset me.
Yours & Gnomes, as in Oops, my riding companions are doing things & bad shit is going down, so I’ll just ride away & disassociate myself from it.
Wonderful attitude, taken to extremes, this is the same attitude that helped the genocide in Rwanda, i.e. I will look the other way & so I’m not involved.
I’m glad that no children were hurt, as a parent I can well understand the hysteria when the most important thing in the world to you is placed in a perceived risk situation.
I accept that you believe that you were innocent but I think that you did yourself no favours with your attack on Jenn, We don’t get VooDoos down here but after reading your response, I wouldn’t touch one with your hands.
Still, it sounds like calmer people are getting things under control so I wish you all well.
& yeah if this upsets you:
hbaynes@xtra.co.nz will always find me
Once we’ve finished beating the shit out of each other, I’ll show you the best Mountain biking in the world, (but don’t tell everyone, they’ll just ruin it).
Peace & Love
Hurben
May 19th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
…ok…went for a great two hour road ride, fought some serious ass headwinds, i’m back home chowing down a delicious meal & reading both an e-mail & a d.c. blogsite response from joe & i’m good w/ joe & gnomer…(my mom used to say “just walk away”)…ya don’t need to “be jesus” as gnomer referenced earlier…
…i still think bgr/randy mason & mr diaz need to throw down on the table w/ more of an explanation as to why they feel the need for their kind of action but this is playing out as a bicycle community “thing”, as it should be…
…other that that, fuck you young punks…anybody who doesn’t know that LED ZEPPELIN is the best rock n’ roll band ever, just doesn’t get it…what a’ ya, stoned ???…
…just fucking sayin’…
May 19th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Damn I wanted to stay out of the rest of this mess, but I am bored and can’t come up with the will power.
Hurben – messing with course markers and Rwanda? Seriously…this is getting way out of hand.
Sometimes walking away is the best option. Should JM/Gnome have gotten into a throwdown with BGR and DD on the MBAA course?
It is too bad that kids got lost, but did they get lost due to the sabotage, that isn’t perfectly clear to me. Seems there were references to witnesses that fixed some of the issues??
I have done plenty of courses that were not sabotaged and still hard to figure out at times. Even a clearly marked course can get fuzzy when you feel like you are about to puke through your eyes.
I think Joe makes a fair statement. He isn’t coming off to me as the innocent angel, simply acknowledged his view and participation. Most of us were not there and thus don’t have much to base our opinions on. The anti VooDoo rhetoric strikes me as a broad condemnation considering the number of people involoved.
I also think most of us have not gone and reported every wrong we have witnessed in life, for a variety of reasons justifiable at the time. How many of us have gone out and confronted people guilty of some type of infraction?
In the end we are talking about messing with a race course. A mountain bike race course no less. There is inherent danger in riding a bike on the lawn, let alone racing in N. AZ terrain. I was one of the first morons to complain about the initial sabotage so it isn’t like I am supporting these actions, just trying to keep this in perspective.
Oh, wait, wtf am I thinking, keep things in perspective on an internet forum??
and…If we are going to discuss movies within this drama, then I’ll throw out Apocalypse Now, as it seems more in line with the general tone, somehow appropriate.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Led Zepplin fuckin rules….
There’s never been a band like them since & there will never be!!
May 19th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
I’ll second the Led Zepplin vote.
what are you people, on dope?
May 19th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
Pirata,
wonderful cool voice of reason, bless you for Being here.
Apocalypse Now, oh Yes!! Redux version – something that only other vets can understand. (Viet Nam was not the only war in the world).
May 19th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
“ALL I WANTED WAS A FUCKING MANGO!”
Never get out of the boat.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Absolutely, never get out of the boat, Bye Tiger..
May 19th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
el patio, turned parking lot, turned guppy FBC – worst beer in AZ. Alpine always there. Survior. Cosmic., Mtn Sports, SingleTrack; Absolute; various bryce-cycle iterations… AZ Bikes (suckee).
south town without beaver st, but always Tim’s coffee shop. Things started to decline with the arrival of Late for da Train… me remeber when dude slid off upper sunset and split internal organs…
when secret was really a secret… when hotshot was smooth… when rocky ridge was ROCKY… when there were no DH rigs on upper oldham… no vanshuttles on elden road… when it is used to SNOW on mother peaks… fuck all … recent events illustrated on dcDOTcom make us sad.
Gone culture; gone wool socks with running shoes; gone Martans; gone double special at tim’s; gone snowbowl (ski the pee); welcome phx north.
word out for good.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
O.K. Did the kids get lost at the point where the markers were changed, or did they just get lost? I’ve seen lots of people get lost on well marked courses.
Joe and Gnome did the best thing they could. They walked away. They removed themselves from the situation. That’s big in a group ride. I can tell my fellow graduate students they are being stupid, or tell them they are missing opportunities by not being involved. They are adults. They can make their own decisions. As long as they aren’t actually harming people, I can’t do much else.
No one has linked the events at the race to the course sabotage earlier in the week. Keep the events separate. There are most likely different people involved.
Breathe, put things in perspective, and do what you can to keep this from blowing up in the future.
Because it’s really why we all follow this site, I went on a great lunchtime ride today. We’re getting a weird last gasp of spring here in central TX. 80°F, light winds. I hope others had the chance to do the same. It helps put it in perspective.
Peace.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Point Break, davis? Please tell me you ARE joking! RIGHT??!!??!!
May 19th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
skbykes,
Them kids are gonna have to learn that shit some day! May as well get it over with!
May 19th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
El Jefe
“Joe and Gnome did the best thing they could. They walked away”.
Sorry, that’s not the best, that’s just fucking weak!!
May 19th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
…weak ???…you think it’s fucking weak when you look a good friend in the eye & say “i’m riding away ‘cuz that ain’t me” ???…
…you don’t think that makes a statement or creates an impression w/in your friends mind ???…
…c’mon, bud…what kinda friends you got ???…
May 20th, 2009 at 12:27 am
Definately not ‘friends’ like these wankers !!
May 20th, 2009 at 6:33 am
No Hurben, the most you can do when dealing with other “adults” is tell them they are being dumbfucks, and set the example by leaving. Maybe you report them, which was done here by people who named the wrong names and blew things out of proportion. If they were beating someone up it would be different. If it were kids it would be different. In how many non-work or military situations where there is a chain of command do you tell other adults how to behave? Again, this isn’t my fight. I don’t live anywhere near Flagstaff or AZ even. It’s a shame that people did what they did. Separate the course vandalism from before the race from this. It’s likely that they are completely unrelated (This site posted something on it as I recall, supporting the MBAA and their efforts to get more course marshals) Step back, breath, and put things in perspective.
May 20th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Hurben,
None of your friends are wankers? Come on, everyone has one or two wankers in their group of friends…
I gotta agree with el jefe. It’s not like they were beating up a blind kid. It WAS stupid and childish, but the level of severity did not call for intervention. It’s enough of a statement to just seperate from the situation….
Even if you don’t agree with that, Gnome and Joe have done enough positive things for the cycling community to deserve a little slack on such a minor slip up! Get off their nuts!!!
May 20th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Oh yeah, good point Flanders.
How much time did Gnome devote to the MBAA to date?
You can debate his decision all you want, but he has certainly done some good time for them as well. I would venture to guess it is a largely thankless job, unless you enjoy hearing bitching about the same old courses etc. regularly.
I am a wanker. I would have probably done pretty much the same thing.
But then it is so much easier to be confrontational when dealing with numerous stranges on the internet via a keyboard.
And for what it is worth, I have many wanker friends as well. We have all collectively made a crime blotter full of bad decisions but I can also count on them to go way out on a limb for me and others if needed.
Or at least provide excellent story telling fodder.
I think a lot of people need to drink enough that the next day’s hangover seriously trumps any other issues. Nothing like that to bring things into perspective.
May 20th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
and by that I mean the attendees at
http://www.payntake.com/index.htm
May 20th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
ROTHNOTHAGAR
and Joe still has my wallet.
May 20th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Diaz,Diaz,Diaz…you still causing trouble eh Dan?
Joe don’t you know…you can’t take him any where :]
Cheers…glad no ones was killed
May 20th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
…pirata…thanks for the link…the “reality” of pay n take is pretty fucking cool…
…we “outsiders” have heard regular mention of it here on d.c. but impressions were limited…one minute it just sounds like a local convenience store & next it sounds like a home away from home to the cycling masses…
…now, w/ the link, i believe i “get it”…so kudos to whoever at “pay n take” stepped up to the plate & suggested it be a ‘temple of resolution’ for the rampant bullshit that’s been plaguing the local scene…free bbq & discount brew…
…props to the principals of bbq n beer…
…& i hope the self righteous & the indignant can come together…
May 21st, 2009 at 1:20 am
The wallet is gone…. Get over it!
May 21st, 2009 at 7:03 pm
the pay’n take concept is a lot more cool than a lot of other places you could drink a beer.
In my mind a better option than say, what you will find a few doors down…or on any given bar block in a college town.
One of the things about Flagstaff that seems to have remained cool.
Sometimes I feel like that town is like the girl that was super hot in high school/college, it eventually went to her head, she got all partied out and went to hell, but still thinks she is the best thing around.
ok, enough of this. I am wondering why I am writing about drinking joints and not just drinking…..
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:56 am
Eat a bowl of dick up, till you hickup!
May 22nd, 2009 at 6:04 am
Permutation of an old saying: “If none of your friends are wankers, you are the wanker amongst your group of friends.”
I know all these guys. I also know about how the gossip goes here in Flag. Yesterday was the first I heard about all of this as I’ve been living with my head down a hole lately. Then I stop by here and see all the hoopla.
I’ve seen Diaz sabotaging trails and just for fun races. If Dave and Joe said they just rode away, then they did. Those guys are on the up and up, and while a bit surly sometimes I don’t see them fucking with a race course. Unless they said they did, which the didn’t… BGR is a good guy too. It doesn’t sound yet like he is copping or not copping to it, so whatever.
Everybody has a right to be on the trails that they are allowed on. Racers have the right to race on the trails. Walkers have the right to walk on the trails. Racers still have to be nice to other people on the trail during a race on public lands.
If the tight shorts crowd has their chamois’ up in a bunch about this, just wait until the Forest Circus closes all the moto trails north of the Peaks and at Wing Mountain. You won’t be able to pedal a minute on the Fort Valley trails on a summer weekend without hearing or seeing a motorcycle because all the moto folks up to escape the heat of PHX will be riding in that area. But, like it or not they will be there because that will be the only legal singletrack for them to ride.
Guess we’ll all have to learn to play nice and get along in this sandbox.